Building A Logistics Company: Lessons From Shashi Kiran Shetty Of Allcargo Group

NOTE: This is a transcript of the interview including questions by the host and responses by the interviewee. Human eyes have gone through the script but there might still be errors in some of the text, so please refer to the audio in case you need to clarify any part. If you want to get in touch regards any feedback, you can drop us a message on [email protected].

Mr. Shetty, tell me a little bit about Allcargo as a company or as an enterprise. You have many ventures within Allcargo now and three different, four different listed companies. But tell me about what's changed and what's not as you've grown and expanded with the economy and which is really the last 25-30 years.

A tremendous change to begin with when we started—in India, I'm talking about—we did not have a good port infrastructure and within the port a very poor warehousing infrastructure. Storage areas, the equipment those are used, were pretty substandard—old, breaking down again and again. As a result, the ships were delayed. There's a lot of idle time for vehicles and people etc.

From there, today we have third generation ports around the country. Private players have come and invested in large terminals.Port has become from a trust to an authority. There is a lot of new equipment, modern equipment is in place in all the ports. Handling equipment has changed dramatically. The rail transportation of moving containers from the hinterland into the ports have dramatically changed. Containers are now tracked using the tracking devices. Container freight stations have emerged outside the ports because ports can't develop land in an unlimited way.

And also what happens in port when you handle the cargo versus handling the ships, there is much more requirement of labour in handling the cargo. So the government at some stage decided to keep the cargo handling outside the port area and do that in the private sector because the private sector was far more efficient in managing the cargo. So they have restricted the port for only discharging and loading containers and then stacking them and delivering to the container freight station operators. So that is how the model emerged and that model was not existing. Earlier, everything was managed in the port within the port premises.

Was that model followed internationally as well?

Yes, of course.It is all followed internationally, the same way.

So the port's job is to, as you said, bring in and take out containers or bulk.

And keep the ships for a minimum period of time within the port because the ships are very, very expensive. So any delay of loading and unloading the ships, the shipping lines are not going to like it because their whole schedule goes for a toss. So they want a fixed window to come, discharge, load and go. And they don't want to do anything with what happens after that.

There are a couple of phases in all of this. So in the early part of your company's growth, a lot of your business was actually international. And then you saw the growth of the domestic part.

So take us through what that timeline and what changed and when?

My business career started in 1983. I was 24 years old at that time. And I started the business by handling ships inside the port. So that gave me a tremendous exposure, operationally, hands on, day, night, across the country. So it gave me a tremendous exposure.

Do you remember what the cargo was then? Or what kind of cargo?

Break bulk cargo, anything that is moving in, you know, general cargo, machineries, garments, footwear, textiles, chemicals, you name it, you know, hand tools. So that cargo used to come into the warehouse and then package-by-package on a sling, you load it into the ship. And there's a forklift inside the ship, which will go and keep it inside the hatches and all that. So that is how the business used to operate in those days.

At that time, my exposure was always for international shipping, not so much domestic. Domestic to the extent of handling within the ports, of supplying equipment under the hook, and moving that to the outlying areas and offloading it and stacking it. So that was the transportation exposure for our company. But in 94, we became an operator to ship cargo from India to any part of the world. So that is how the entire shipping experience started. And at that time, obviously, the focus as my exposure is concerned, India's focus was to earn foreign exchange, which means export, export, export, right. And when you export, you also need to import a lot of goods into the country as a support, as a raw material or as an add on equipment or what have you, right? And steel, India used to manufacture very less steel in those days, a lot of steel used to get imported, aluminium, copper rods.

So many such things, machinery was one of the biggest imports that is even today. So that is how our business was and the national importance was to generate foreign exchange. And obviously, when you do foreign exchange generation, there has to be factories.So that is to create employment and transportation, etc. So I saw a dramatic rise in India's export and import in the first 20 years of my business career. And after that, in the country, there is a tremendous amount of reform, policy reform, infrastructure reform, privatisation, private players coming to invest in the country, all that we saw in that period.

And from that period onwards, the domestic market also started growing. And then our company started looking at how we can help the customers or Indian industry to move project cargo across the country when the factories were getting built, when the power plants were getting built, and refineries were getting built. So we participated in many of those projects for transportation and execution. So we invested a lot in hydraulic axles to carry 500 tonne packages.

So one of your specializations is carrying those big things.

What we call over dimensional cargo, heavy lifts. So that need to be carried by road, we had to create bridges, we had to buy barges to navigate in the inland rivers. Say, for example, in Assam or in UP. So we used to do all the special project related.

Do you remember one which was memorable because of either its scope of challenge or complexity?

We moved a very special equipment for oil and gas from Houston. So we arranged the entire transportation of that equipment module from one of the factories in Houston and brought it on a ship, which had the ability to lift 1400 tons. So this is an 800 tonne package. So we arranged that ship, brought it to Mumbai offshore, and then arranged a barge which could receive it and then took it offshore to install it in the rigs. So that is a very, very special project.

So this is meant for a rig? For an offshore rig…like an ONGC

It was fully manufactured in Houston. That is right. Then we participated in many power projects, challenging power projects. So now we are not that active in that business. So that's how the company has grown within the country. And then we also bought a lot of equipment. All these windmills you see, the erection of windmills, we had a big role to play with our equipment. So that again, that business we moved out because it was highly capital intensive, you had to recycle your assets, and our customers were not paying in time.

Because you know, if you see from the financial crisis, what happened in 2008, all the way till 2018-19, the renewable energy industry was in a way stagnating. A lot of upheavals happened. Customers had, there were no investors, banks were not funding, projects were not getting executed in time. Many companies like Suzlon, you know, had a lot of difficulties. So we're not getting our payments and so then we decided to move out of that business. And then subsequently in 2019, we identified express transportation and contract logistics as a main core business where we would like to participate as Allcargo Group. So that is how we bought this company called GATI, which was one of the pioneers in the express logistics business.

We also acquired a company called CCI, which specialised in contract logistics based in the chemical industry. And we saw a lot of synergy in both those businesses. So we bought both the companies, turned them around and integrated them at this stage. That's become our flagship domestic logistics business today. In addition to many of the international expansion we did and also building container freight stations around the country. So all that we also did between 2003 to 2018-19.

So when you say contract logistics, I mean for those who don't understand, can you define what is contract logistics and how is it different from let's say supply chain logistics?

Yeah, it's pretty much the same. Supply chain management and contract logistics is pretty much a similar business model. Supply chain obviously becomes a much more extended version. In supply chain management, you actually completely take over the logistics requirement of a large company, a large manufacturer. Contract logistics is something where the manufacturer brings his cargo to the warehouse for storage and further distribution as and when the requirement from their customer is placed. So contract logistics—what we do is we take large format warehouses, say 200,000 square feet. It can go up to half a million square feet. So we have multiple warehouses operating in the country.

We have about 200 locations where we have warehouses for various sizes of customers—small, medium customers, large customers, multinational customers. So we offer either a dedicated warehouse for them, or we have warehouses where multiple people can come and store their cargo and we can distribute them or their customers come and pick up the cargo from there. So we basically invest in the warehouse, not necessarily own warehouse.

We invest the warehouse by lease or build on the basis of the requirement of the customer. And then we put the entire infrastructure within the warehouse, like a racking system, computer system to track the cargo, which cargo is lying in which location, last one first out, because otherwise the same inventory will continue to remain there. So we have to do that. And we get deeply integrated into the customer's SAP or whatever their operating systems are. So we receive the intimation online and then we are supposed to keep the cargo ready for pickup. Or if they want us to deliver to their distributor, we deliver to the distributor. So that's called the contract logistics.

So I have a couple of questions and one is as Allcargo, who is your biggest customer today on a continuous basis and what all would you be doing for them?

So we have multiple customer segments. We have the global freight forwarders, could be one of our biggest customers for some of our global business companies like DHL or Kuehne+Nagel or DSV, Schenker, Expeditors. These are the large global freight forwarding companies who outsource their LCL requirements to us. Then we have…

LCL is basically filling up the container.

SS: Small parcels. If you have a full container load, you ship as full container load. You take a container 20 foot, 40 foot or whatever you like and then you ship it directly to your destination and from there your customer can come and pick it up or the shipping lines or your freight forwarder or ourselves, we deliver it to your door. So that is full container load. That is very easy and very simple.

But when you have less than container load cargo, for example, it has to go somewhere in Nigeria, for example, or in Cameroon, for example. So you do not have enough cargo to load a direct container to that, right? So use a hub and spoke model. For example, we have cargo going from say JNPT to about 100 different destinations. So for about 50 of them, we have so much cargo and we can take them directly. For example, London, Hamburg, Barcelona or New York. Those containers go direct. We have enough cargo to load one full single container.

But when you do not have enough cargo, then we load the cargo which goes into that hemisphere of the world, that part of the world. We load it in one container and then say take it to, for example, we have multiple hubs. Say we take it to Antwerp in Belgium. In Belgium, we have cargo coming from different parts of the world. So this cargo then gets deconsolidated in the Antwerp warehouse which belongs to us and then we ship it out to the difficult or smaller destinations from Antwerp. So that is the hub and spoke model that we are specialised in.

So coming back to your question of who could be our biggest customer in India. Today, for example, Reliance, Tata Group, we have almost all the manufacturing companies who some way or the other do business with us and they use us for LCL shipments, they use us for contract logistics, they use us for our express business, and they also use our container freight stations, and some of them are also tenants in our logistic parks.

So we have a very diverse set of customers and I would say not even one large customer gives us one percent of the business because we have a huge customer base.

But 70-80% of your business is B2B as a group.

No, 95% is B2B.

So more than 80 percent is B2B... So Gati is B2C or B2B?

B2B.

Oh, you define it as B2B. So in the B2B space, is there a sort of further segmentation in terms of who is the biggest contributor or the bigger contributor on a normal basis?

Again, B2B requires multiple services, as I mentioned. Allcargo is the only company which can give you all the five segments of the services, five or six segments. We do LCL globally, we do full containers globally, we do air freight globally, we do last mile, first mile globally. In India, we do express transportation by air and also by surface, by rail also some places. Then we do the contract logistics, which I explained. We also serve our customers in the parks to use to serve project transportation. We also build large logistic parks and rent it to big customers. We have given one million square feet to Flipkart, almost half a million to Amazon. And chemicals are one of the biggest segments, all the large global chemical companies do business with us, BSF.

And you have specialised handling?

Specialised handling warehouses and chemical hazards, how to deal with it, all this knowledge and the process, we have deeply integrated into the organisation.

Got it. So you talked about warehouses.So let me start from that end. You said there are over 100 warehouses now. So the warehouses grew because there was a certain demand felt or there was a certain, let's say, demand from the customer or customers. So, how has all logistics, all cargo logistics grown in that sense?

So, obviously, your, let's say, your ability to manage operations on the port side is the starting competence. So, did warehouses come on the journey? Where did they come? And today, if you were to look at the whole landscape, what is driving what?

Let me come to the warehouse first. The warehouse transformation or the requirement of large format warehouses, which by the way is the norm outside India in the developed economies. In India, because the economy was small, and there was no standardisation. Some people built good warehouses, but most of them operated from godowns because distribution in India, if you remember, largely were left to CNFA companies. And the CNFA companies are nothing but labour contractors, and little more than that. So, they are not a scaled version of the business model. So, they operated in each city for certain customers, and they had no scale.

So, when you don't have a scale in a business, what happens? You can't invest in the right infrastructure, right people, right systems and process, etc. No finance, you know, it is operated like a small little local company.

So, when GST happened, I saw that it was going to be a game changer for the distribution industry. And that's exactly what's happening today. So, we had land banks, which were bought pre-GST to build inland container depots, rail connectable inland container depots, which are supposed to be large and bonded. So, we had a large land parcel outside Delhi, a place called Farukhnagar, about 10 kilometres from the Maruti factory. And we had another 100 acres we had bought near Bangalore. About 15 kilometres from Whitefield.

Both these properties got into a lot of controversy in terms of land aggregation, clearances, approvals, etc. So, it took eight, nine years of tremendous effort, painful effort, I would say, to aggregate this land and make it ready. And fortunately, all that happened.. as the demands were okay. So, instead of building ICDs, we decided to develop them as logistic parks. So, these logistic parks, if you ever visit, are world class. So, you drive into a park, which is like going into a big factory, right?

It's almost like a four-tier roads, one warehouse, which is half a million square feet, there are warehouses 300,000 square feet, and a lot of parking areas, extremely clean, well lit at night. So, those kinds of facilities we decided to build. And obviously, customers are queuing up to sign the lease deeds. And best of the best customers signed up with us for that. So, that is how we started developing the warehousing infrastructure. And some of them we leased, and some of them also we manage within the, we ourselves as a contract logistic operator, we manage those warehouses also. So, that is how the warehousing opportunity was, I would say, leveraged or seen through and developed and successfully developed and leased it out.

Prior to that, how did we get into warehousing itself is because of our operational experience of running container freight stations. The container freight stations are exactly similar to logistic parks, but they are bonded, and they're outside the ports.Like in JNPT, we operate two facilities of 65 acres and one other of 40 acres. So, it's almost about 100 acres we operate in JNPT or outside JNPT. One is on lease from the port, the other is owned by the company. So, last month we handled close to 20,000 containers from JNPT itself.

How does that number contrast to the past? I mean, is that a peak or is that?

This is a peak. Highest ever. We started off probably with about 3,000 containers, 15 years ago. So, it has now reached 20,000 containers. And then we expanded that into the other parts of the larger ports, like Chennai, Mundra, Calcutta, Delhi–It's a dry port. We partnered with Container Corporation of India and developed an inland depot there.

And you're also in Nepal.

We also have a facility in Nepal for a long time. Yes. So, all this, you know, they're nothing, again, logistic parks, but smaller format warehouses, but there you need more open space to stack containers. It is almost like a port. A container freight station, nothing but an extension of the port. The same custom people operate, they examine the goods there. And from there, the duty is paid, and then the cargo is allowed to go. So, with that experience, that helped in building the logistic park.

So, how the container freight station business itself evolved. So, that got evolved because of our LCL business, right? The LCL business needs a warehouse, because the cargo comes from the factory to a warehouse from multiple people. Every week you have to ship the cargo out because there's a fixed day sailing of the ships. So, everybody plans to plan and send their cargo to the warehouse, to the container freight station, on the basis of when it will be ready from the customs to ship the cargo. So, there is a time gap normally, on an average, from the time the cargo arrives in the warehouse, to when it gets shipped, there's normally a gap of about five days, five to seven days. That much time is required for the customs to examine the cargo, allow your documents to be approved, whatever the fees need to be paid.

That used to be much more earlier, but now it is much less. You can send cargo and ship it out the next day also, if your paperwork is in order. So, for that, you needed a warehouse. And when we started the business in 94; 94–2003, we operated from a third party warehouse, which was belonging to the public sector companies, like a Container Corporation, or Concur, a container transport…. So, they were operating these CFSs. And we hoped that the government would privatise that to the private operators to bring in more efficiency, bring in scale, etc. So, that opportunity came, that is how we built our first container freight station, and which became very successful, profitable. And the same model, then we replicated across the country. So, that is how the container freight station opportunity came up, because of our global transportation infrastructure.

And that opportunity came, because I was handling operator in the port. And how I ended up in the port, because I worked for a shipping line for about four years. So, if you look at it, the whole journey started from working for a shipping line, starting a transportation company, becoming a global operator, then building container freight stations, becoming a project transportation and crane rental company, then became an express company, and then we became a contract logistics company. So, that is how the whole journey emerged.

So, let me come to the present. You know, the last few years have been quite exciting and interesting. So, there are two or three things that have happened. So we've seen, for example, let's say two years ago, Russia attacked Ukraine. Russia attacked Ukraine.

So that created a lot of shifts in flows, maybe of oil and maybe other things more. In the last year, since October, we've seen tensions in the Middle East after Hamas attacked Israel. And that seems to be growing. It seems to hold still, then again grow, then hold still, again grow. And then we've had fresh tensions because of Houthi rebels attacking ships passing through the Red Sea. So that's another determinant or factor in the whole sort of basket of uncertainty. So from your perspective, how have things changed?

And let me add another aspect to it. So this is, let's say the negative, maybe the positive could be, as some people argue, yes, the China plus one. So the US is fighting with China on trade, constantly increasing tariffs, multinationals are trying to rejig their manufacturing, moving away from China into Vietnam, India and so on and so forth. So there seems to be a mix of opportunities. Some are, in a way, threats and some are opportunities. So how is all of this looking to you? And how has this been for Allcargo in the last, particularly in the last couple of years?

Yeah, you know, I think that's what makes this business very tough and very challenging. If you look at even before the Ukraine invasion by Russia, we had Covid. We just got over Covid before that. Before COVID we had various other crises that happened, global financial crisis, and many other things have also happened. So, first of all, this is a business where, you know, it's something where one needs to be on the ground, like any services business.

It's a business also which has transitioned a lot from paperwork to systems and processes. It is also now becoming more and more a digital-enabled business. So that part of the disruption is also a big one that we experienced in the last few years. Also, when you reach a certain scale, you also have to be cyber resilient.

And you were attacked by ransomware.

Yeah. There are many companies, including us, that unfortunately were subject to that.

But at least the public version is that you did not give in because most people give in, actually.

We didn't. We don't brag about it, but, you know, we went through a very horrific time managing it and dealing with it, and we've been victims of that big time. So we had insurance, too. But anyway, that crisis was also something that we had to go through. Covid was very tough, you know, managing the whole whole business, which is so hands on of course, our people did a tremendous job and took a tremendous amount of risk. Our frontline people were never taken leave. They were there and they were working because of that the Indian ports have really functioned very, very well.

If you look at China, China closed down the ports in India. We had not closed the ports. Our ports are operational, our cargo is slowed down. But cargoes were moving and slowed down also for a few weeks. So big, big credit to our team, not only our team, the entire logistics industry. I really must convey my real appreciation and really hats off for them. With minimum casualties. Nothing happened to our people. We made sure that all sorts of precautions were in place to make sure that they're safe. So coming back to your question, the world was in Covid time… also the entire freight industry…. One was a challenge and the second is the growth in the business that happened because the governments in the western world doled out a lot of money to their citizens and there was a lot of spending that happened during the COVID time. In the process, there was a significant demand for shipping.

And also because of many ports which are closed and many warehouses are also closed in the western world and in many other countries around the world. The cargo, the truck's movements were limited. So there was a big demand. Containers were getting stuck in the process. No new ships were getting delivered. Ships were getting held up in the ports because many ports are not allowing the foreigners to come into their land, particularly in China. China went through a very, very bad time during the COVID. Their policies were spoken and written about it. I don't want to repeat that. So that actually disrupted the entire shipping industry big time.

Because of the disruption, the freight levels went sky high and the shipping lines earned a lot of money. And many freight forwarding companies also earn a lot of money. Our profits also went up, but not in that proportion. But you know, we were also a beneficiary for the tremendous work that has also happened. So soon after that, you know, everybody were, you know, extremely excited and as if there is no going back from that kind of a boom, right?

So everybody started investing in more assets, acquiring companies, and a lot of money was spent. So there became a suddenly over capacity. And then this war happened. Because of the war, the governments started tightening. They tightened the interest cost, increased interest rates. They stopped all the doling out of money to the people. And warehouses are full with inventory. Suddenly there were no orders. So the demand for goods and services have fallen. Services were still okay. Demand for goods has fallen from the cliff, almost from the cliff. There’s a reduction of almost 25-30% in demand globally. So in the process, the freight started collapsing.

And so this is 22-23?

No, 23, second half. Till the Suez Canal issue happened. So the war seems to be not ending. Economies are still in difficulty. As you know, the USA is still uncertain about what will happen with the next election and what policy is going to be with the new president. We are hoping that the war would not spread to other parts of the world. So right now, it is a very, very difficult time for the shipping and logistics industry to plan the future.

Right now, the freight levels are again high, so a lot of ships are ordered. So those ships will get delivered next year. And hopefully the Red Sea crisis will end. The war between Hamas and Israel will also stop for the humanitarian stress point. And also hope and pray that the war between Ukraine and Russia ends soon, which doesn't look like. So. All this will further disrupt the demand and supply and the industry as a whole. But we are fighting, fighting hard to stay as efficient, cost effective, trying to gain as much market share as possible.

Now the business is revived to some extent, with the demands also going up because the inventories ran out and more orders have come in. But generally, we are trying to be as resilient as possible. We invest a lot in technology. We are cyber resilient to a great extent. We are among the best in the industry in terms of scoring.

We consolidated our company. We acquired two companies, one in Germany and one in Scandinavia, and integrated them. We turned around Gati as a company, which also we acquired our contract. Our contract logistics business is growing rapidly. In the meanwhile, we have also kind of restructured our businesses. Something I can talk about in detail later if you like. But the last five years have been extremely challenging. But we overcome it. As a company, we became very strong. We are a zero debt company. We have also sold some of our logistics….

So I read that you were, you are averse to debt right from the first day that you started your business.

Yeah, not averse to debt, but I am always keeping it within the very healthy levels.

So let me ask you the cockpit question. Right. So suppose you were a, you're a pilot, which you are in some ways, and you're looking at a cockpit. What are the things that you're tracking? I mean, you talked about costs, which is I guess the bottom line, and the efficiency, the speed at which things get travelled. So. And what else are you tracking? Which in a way is reflecting the health of the company as well as the opportunity in the market.

Correct. I think it is a continuous process of making a very efficient radar system to see what is coming, what can change, what can go wrong. And whatever goes wrong, how can you have elbow room to manoeuvre and take the ship to avoid the... Can't avoid completely, but you know how to face, how to remain resilient in terms of our leadership in the company, in terms of our culture in the organisation, in terms of systems and process are most efficient and advanced, which needs a lot of investment every year.

We make sure that we don't miss out on opportunities. Customers always remain happy to the best extent we can serve them. Trying to understand the ground level, what can go wrong, what the trend, how to be better. We manage our productivity with a lot of tools about what kind of efficiency we are getting in our businesses, identify areas where we can improve and continuously track those. And you know, bring in training and development at all times to people, keep them motivated, engaged.

Right. So if you were to let me flip the question, suppose from a customer's point of view again, suppose you're larger customers and you mentioned that most of the big companies in India work with you. Has anything changed in their demands from you, particularly in the last few years? As in I'm talking about post Covid only now. Yes. And if so, what's that?

Not really. The customers' demands are simple. They want the best quality of service at the cheapest possible rates and accessibility when they have a problem. We try to maintain that… all three to the best extent possible. I think that really not change much. Other than that, of course they want tech integration, more proactive information availability to them online. Internally, we try to do that also for our own requirements. So I would say we are really a tech leader and we transformed as a company. We continuously work with large consultants to help us become more efficient, new areas, and how we can develop.

And you feel that's because, and that helps you, of course, become more efficient, but that's also helping you bring costs. I mean, the more digital integration that you have…

It has to be both because there has to be a return on investment. Otherwise why are you doing tech? So some things you have to do anyway. You have to have an operating system… that is very difficult to do, an ROI. But without that, you can't do business. Correct?

Security, for example, you have to invest in security without looking at the return. But many other projects, you have to look at the return on investment and time that is spent on that. So we are very focused on that. We have a system of capex approval for all the money that is invested, like how we track our margins in the business, customer wise, trade lane wise, country wise, business wise, vertical wise, to make sure that we are on top of that game.

Right. So, last one or two questions. So when it comes to metrics again. So again, coming back to cost and efficiency, what's your current effort in terms of managing cost and managing efficiency, given everything else? I mean, costs in a general sense, nothing is coming down. So everything that you're working with is going up, perhaps. And as you said, your customers still want you to deliver at lower cost. So how are you, any insights on what you're doing or how you're thinking about it?

It is a massive challenge, not only for us, for the whole industry, because ours is a very fragmented industry. We have to continuously grow our business. You can't have a same remuneration for the same thing you do year over year, right, when the customer is not giving you anything for that. We are investing in technology, customers not giving you anything for that. And all your customers, at least the names you mentioned, they are all growing, as in their businesses.

That's right, exactly. So what is driving this business really is the global growth in the trade that kept the business growing. Now, if the global trade doesn't grow, obviously that will have a big impact on the business. But we have to try and look at acquisitions, consolidate the business, go to new geographies using the same leadership pipeline, and look at higher market share and offer more services for the same customer, you know.

So you obviously travel a lot and you visit places, maybe ports. What's the last place or one place that you visited recently? Maybe in the last year or so that impressed you? For whatever it impressed you for. Maybe efficiency, maybe innovation.

I visited the half a million square feet…one single box warehouse of Flipkart. It is mind blowing. You all should go there and take a shoot there with their… It is like an ocean of cargo lying all over the place. And people working, minimum number of people working, and the whole cargo is moving around in a. In the conveyor belts. And how they get packed, how they go where the entire investment inside the warehouse to stack it is incredible. It is a view you will normally not see in that scale. I'm sure there are many such warehouses available everywhere in the world. But I was really, really impressed with.

This is the last question. Let me supplement that. And what does that tell you? It tells you about technology, innovation, human ingenuity, what else?

It's everything, covers the whole spectrum. Accuracy, which is most important, because timely delivery needs accuracy. What technology can do without people, how it can replace people and people not in a negative way. People make mistake… technologies, if it is processed correctly, they don't make mistakes. They follow the same standard. Right. They are meant to only do that. Humans have to do so many things. So it's a technology. Scale… Only scale can make you that investment. And for that scale, the whole design of the warehouse, what we built, which suited them and such massive in nature, is again, something beautiful.