The US is Headed Into Recession and India Into Recovery
Trump in his 2nd administration, clearly is more focussed on Main Street, at least right now
On Episode 528 of The Core Report, financial journalist Govindraj Ethiraj talks to Arvind Chari, Chief Investment Officer (CIO) at Q India UK (affiliate of Quantum Advisors India) as well as Vikash Agarwalla, Managing Director and Partner at Boston Consulting Group (BCG).
(00:00) Stories of the Day
(01:00) The US is headed into recession and India into recovery
(03:36) Why India stands to pull in more FII flows
(14:26) Inflation could go below 4%
(17:30) Oil prices continue to hold around $70
(18:01) Don’t ask for Tax Cuts, we will bring down your logistics costs, says India’s transport minister
(20:04) A new pharma research and manufacturing sector is opening up in India and can grow if we get it right
NOTE: This transcript contains the host's monologue and includes interview transcripts by a machine. Human eyes have gone through the script but there might still be errors in some of the text, so please refer to the audio in case you need to clarify any part. If you want to get in touch regarding any feedback, you can drop us a message on [email protected].
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Good morning, it's Tuesday, the 11th of March and this is Govind Rajyathiraj, headquartered in Broadcasting and Streaming, as always, from Mumbai, India's financial capital, our top stories and themes. And before we start, this is a holiday shortened week, so we have a long weekend coming up, so we will be saying bye to you a little earlier this week. Our top stories,
The US is headed into recession and India into recovery.
Why does India stand to pull in more foreign portfolio investor flows in coming months?
Inflation could go below 4%.
Don't ask for tax cuts, we will bring down your logistics costs, says India's transport minister.
A new pharmaceutical research and manufacturing sector is opening up in India and can grow if we get a few things right.
Time To Decouple Again
The United States is headed into recession and India into some form of recovery. Now, the second part, that India might be a little open-ended and a tad early to proclaim, but the first part has been pretty much promised by US President Donald Trump. He refused to rule out the fact that the US economy would enter a recession this year, telling an administration-friendly news channel that there will be a period of transition for what we're doing is very big.
The reasoning apparently is, from what I've picked up from elsewhere, that there are things other than prices that matter, like family values and cultural issues, which matter to Trump's base more specifically, and the stock market movements, including in the short term, are less important in that context. So that's the view right now. Meanwhile, Wall Street is further reacting, having, of course, given up all the gains it saw since November 2024, when the elections that brought in Donald Trump took place.
Remember, Wall Street had also gone up in anticipation of a Trump victory, which they felt would be good for Wall Street rather than, as such, Main Street. Trump, in his second administration, clearly is more focused on Main Street, at least right now. So that's that.
And it would be interesting to see how this plays out with all his tech bro friends who are seeing their wealth diminish by the day. On Wall Street again, stock futures dropped on Monday as selling pressures continued. Futures tied to the Dow Jones Industrial Average fell about 427 points, or 1%.
S&P 500 futures were also down, similarly as were NASDAQ 100 futures, pointed out by CNBC. Tesla's stock, by the way, had never seen such a stretch of red. For seven straight weeks since Elon Musk went to Washington to join the Trump administration, shares in the automaker have declined and closed Friday at around $270, according to CNBC, which added that this is the longest such losing streak for Tesla in its 15 years as a public company.
Last week, the S&P 500 lost about 3.1%. Its worst weekly marks in September, Dow lost 2.4 and the NASDAQ composite 3.5. All of this from CNBC. September 24 is also the time and the point at which the Indian markets had hit a peak and then took that about turn. Analysts are now telling CNBC that the risks of a bear case have risen and some are looking at a 14-20% drawdown, which of course brings it closer to the Dow Street.
So what does this mean for global flows? Well, we have some good answers on that coming up. Back home, the BSE Sensex swung up and down and then closed down 217 points at 74,115.
It started in the positive though, usually a sign that some larger investors wait for the markets to open up and then start selling. The Nifty 50 was down 92 points at 22,460. The broader markets were hit too with the and the small cap about 2%.
Foreign institutional investors have been selling consistently into 2025 and into March as well. But how can we put those flows in perspective? And what do they mean in the overall context of the flows that we've seen over the decades?
And what can we compute from the allocations that India gets from what kind of investors within those allocations? And what could they go to in coming months? Also in the context of flows towards China and other markets that we've been seeing.
I reached out to the London-based Arvind Chari, Chief Investment Officer at Q India UK, affiliate of Quantum Advisors India. And I began by asking him how he was seeing the current trend of FII selling into the coming months.
INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
Arvind Chari: Thanks, Rohin. Thanks for having me. Just to give you a perspective to your listeners, if I look at over the last 20 years, if I look at foreign portfolio investments into public equities, in the last 20 years, we've seen about at cost as of end December, and I'll give you recent numbers as well, as of end December, at cost the investments done by foreign investors in equities was about $200 billion, which in market value terms had increased to about $850 odd billion. So that's the perspective, 20-year data, $200 billion at cost, $850 billion around at market value terms. Of course, we've seen some outflows.
So since September, I think we've seen about $25 billion of outflows. In the two months of 2025, Jan and Feb, we've already seen about $13 or $14 billion of outflows. So the at cost number from $200 billion has kind of reduced to about just below $190 billion.
And the market value has come down from $850 billion to about $720 billion. This is just to give a perspective of where we are, what we do. So of course, markets have corrected some of the market value losses because markets are down between 12% and 14-15% in dollar terms on a gross adjustment basis.
Some foreigners would have been invested in mid caps, fall caps, their allocation would have dropped a lot more. Some would have been very specifically focused on the large investments, so their drop would have been lesser. But net, that's what we've seen.
In general, of that $850 billion by December, if you see, I would say about $200 billion, the maximum $200 billion of that amount is dedicated to India allocation. When I say dedicated, it is dedicated through ETFs, investments coming through ETFs. It is dedicated through active funds.
And it is allocations made by very large investors like pension funds, sovereign wealth funds, university endowments, their direct allocations to India. The rest is what we call global flows. So global funds, global emerging market funds and their India allocations, global funds and their India allocations, or these same large investors, pension funds, endowments, university endowments, sovereign wealth funds, their allocation to India through emerging market allocation.
So that's the way to think about it. So of the total market value, roughly about a quarter is coming from dedicated flows to India, and the rest is non-dedicated. Now, that is important to note, because if it is non-dedicated, then it is driven by their overall portfolio within emerging markets and their allocation and what is expensive, what is not, what has done well, what has not done well.
So they want to reduce some allocation to India, and increase some allocation to China. We have seen some of that. In the dedicated flows as well, India did see a lot more passive flows as compared to active flows in a dedicated flow as well.
And we've seen some of those going up. So it could again be a function of India doing better and people taking money off, or just the worry that growth is slowing down, valuations are expensive, market is correcting, momentum is slowing down, and they're taking money off, and that you will see more of that in passive flows, which is coming into equity. If you look at in the active space also, there was one category of investors which had a lot of India-dedicated flows was Japan.
India did see a reasonably large amount of flows in the last two years from Japanese investors into India-dedicated ETFs and India-dedicated funds. And we may be seeing some outflows because the yen has appreciated a lot more against the dollar and against the Indian rupee as well. So you may be seeing some outflow.
So this is just the colour of where we are, what we are seeing.
Govindraj Ethiraj: Right. So the question then is, this is how it's been so far. And from what I gather from what you're saying, that 25% is something that we should assume as somewhat given because these people who researched India, understand India, have a long connection with it.
My question really is how are things looking forward from here, as we are in the middle of everything else in March 2025?
Arvind Chari: Now, as I've said to you before, and I've written about this as well, if I look at the global pool of money invested in India, it is less than 1% of what is totally available. So again, I'll give you some numbers. $300 trillion is what I believe is global assets under management of, again, pension funds, sovereign wealth funds, central banks, endowments, very rich individuals, which are invested in asset management companies.
And if I total that all up insurance companies, it's about $300 trillion. And if you look at that $850 billion of market value, that is less than a third of the allocation. Even if you assume that the entire $300 trillion is not subject to global investing, and only a third of that will be available for investing in other countries apart from the home country, we are still less than 1% in public equities.
Whereas if you look at our share of global GDP, global market cap is already close to 3.5%, 4%. From that perspective, I think as the market's correct, and the correction was due, and it is warranted, you would see some of these investors who have thought about doing India dedicated, because their dedication to emerging markets or allocation to China has not worked for them over a long period of time. Whereas Indian public equity has been a stellar performer, and it remains the best asset class to own globally in public equities.
A lot of these investors will start looking at it and say that markets have corrected, valuations are attractive, and we don't have our reasonably sized allocation, and should we make that allocation. And another thing that is driving that is India's weight now in what we call the MSCI All-Country World Index is closer to 2%, just above that. That's a time when we saw investors looking at China, and they started looking at dedicated allocation to China a decade back.
Maybe we are seeing something very similar with India as well, as India's weight in the global index becomes larger. This weight, Arvind, was higher six months ago? Of course it was.
It was about 2.4-ish percent. Should be closer to 2%, just about 2%.
Govindraj Ethiraj: If you're saying that, let's say money is going to come here because we all have traditionally enjoyed a low share of overall pie, would the issue of valuations matter or not matter so much? Because, I mean, that seems to be the one key reason why a lot of investors have been selling off late. And even at this point of time, India is more expensive than China, which people are thinking is more attractive right now.
Arvind Chari: Govind, there are two, three ways to look at that. The fact that valuations are expensive is also a function of growth. So the expected growth that people anticipated to come in different sectors has not come through and it has not come through for the last decade.
India has not grown beyond that 6-6.5% average GDP growth, much as you talk about different policies, reforms, governance, Modi, it has not picked up. So the expectation, maybe people expected a lot more growth to come and bidded up share valuations. Of course, flows in the market also picked up a lot, both domestic, purely driven by domestic.
And that growth has not come about and you can see a correction, which is why I said the correction was needed, was expected and is warranted because the earnings are slowing down and expectations are catching up with reality. So that's one way of thinking about valuations. The other is that India should be thought about in a strategic sense, like if global investors want to make a long-term strategic allocation, that is what India should be in their portfolio.
So from that perspective, of course, valuations matter as an entry point. But when these large investors, say the pensions or sovereign wealth funds, take a call on India investing, it should be a 5, 10, 15, 20 year time horizon. So entry points do matter and so they will start kicking in when valuations are relatively inexpensive.
But they have to think about a strategic allocation. India is not a trade. China can be a trade, a tactical trade, a tactical allocation, whereas India should not be.
India is a strategic allocation. So they need to think long-term from that perspective. So that's another way to think about it.
The other problem could also be capital gains. India is among the only countries which impose capital gains on foreign investors. So India is not easy to access and there are transaction costs plus there are capital gains.
So in the eventual framework that they decide saying that I like India, I want to be dedicated, but what is my net post-tax return? Is it worthy enough for my teams and my research teams and my portfolio managers to spend time in India? There are multiple things that go through it.
So you know under allocation, but there are aspects to think about. But we think the way from when I discuss with my global investors that we see interest in India rising from these allocators who have not been allocated to India on a dedicated basis.
Govindraj Ethiraj: Right. So the last question to supplement that as well is that, so you're saying at this point, where we are again today, interest returning in terms of fresh allocations or fresh flows in the next few months?
Arvind Chari: I would think so. So six months back, we were ourselves guiding clients who were willing to allocate our new investor saying that if you have a dollar to invest, give me a third or a fourth or a half of that because we don't see valuations as attractive and the way we manage our strategy, we were basically trimming out and kind of holding cash because we didn't find value. And as the markets have corrected, we've actually changed our guidance to tell clients that they should initiate allocation and the allocations can increase over time. So you should see some more dedicated flows.
But, you know, if you look at the valuation itself, it is despite the fall that you see and more than 70% of the stocks have corrected about 30% in dollar terms as well. Despite that, the valuation across board is not attractive. It still seems that the markets are expensive, which again tells me that earnings have to catch up and have to rebound.
It will be a bit more calibrated, but we should expect some dedicated flows to come through.
Govindraj Ethiraj: Arvind, Thank you so much for joining me
Arvind Chari: Thanks Govind.
Inflation
India's February consumer price inflation numbers may have fallen below 4.0% for the first time in six months on moderating food price rises, a Reuters poll showed.
A Reuters poll of 45 economists taken March 4–10 predicted inflation as measured by the annual change in the consumer price index fell to 3.98% in February from 4.31% in January. The report said that as fresh winter produce hits markets over the past few months, food items which make up nearly half of the inflation basket saw a sustained slowdown in price increases. Meanwhile, Crisil Intelligence in its monthly roti rice rate report said the cost of a home cooked vegetarian thali or a full plate meal declined about 1% year on year in February, while that of a non-vegetarian thali grew 6%.
The decline for vegetarian thalis was also because of the fall in prices of tomatoes and LPG cylinders. Tomato prices, which of course swing wildly through the year, fell 28% year on year to Rs 23 a kilo in the month from Rs 32 a kilo last month thanks to a 20% increase in arrivals. On the other hand, LPG, that's the cooking gas cylinder prices, fell about 11% to Rs 803 per 14kg cylinder in Delhi from about Rs 903 a year ago.
On the other hand, what's keeping prices still relatively high is because onion prices are up 11%, potato prices up 16% and vegetable oil prices up 18%. Vegetable oil prices, if you've been listening to the core report for some time, were usually low thanks to lower import duties and have actually helped in keeping overall food inflation low. Now, of course, duties have been raised.
Economists Reuters spoke to said they see a continued slowdown in vegetable prices and that they were seeing a softness in pulse prices or other pulses as well as cereals, which are the most sticky parts of food inflation because their harvest season is not as frequent. There have of course been warnings from the Indian Meteorological Department that summer and heat waves could start early and that in turn has raised concerns that inflation could rise once again as winter supplies start to run out. Meanwhile, former Agricultural Secretary to the Government of India Siraj Hussain wrote in Money Control yesterday that despite a warmer winter in January and February, the general assessment is that wheat, chana and mustard production may not be much affected as the temperature has been a little cooler in March thanks to snowfall in Jammu and Kashmir.
He quoted a presentation made by Agriwatch at the Future of Milling conference recently saying that there was no adverse impact on crops due to a warmer February. In fact, their estimate of wheat production, he says, is 8.2% higher than last year, though things may turn in March as it is expected to be much warmer and affect wheat production. But one good signal of the crop size would be the market price of wheat, which in Uttar Pradesh and Delhi is in the range of Rs 2,900 to Rs 3,000 per quintal, which is 100 kilogrammes, and he wrote that farmers right now may have to worry more about what happens if India is forced to reduce tariffs on agricultural products from the United States.
Speaking of wheat specifically, the US is amongst the leading exporters of wheat in the world, though not very large amounts.
Oil Prices Are Steady
Oil prices are still holding steady as concerns over US import tariffs on the global economy continue to weigh apart from the now hanging sword of increased supply by the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries plus producers. Brent crude was down about 11 cents at about $70.25 a barrel on Monday. Last week, says Reuters, marked WTI crude's seventh consecutive weekly loss, the longest losing streak since November 23, while Brent fell for the third consecutive week.
Don't Ask For Tax Cuts, Says Minister
Several capital market players and investors have raised the issue of capital gains taxes on sale of shares, particularly foreign portfolio investors. While admittedly taxes are not a magic wand in themselves, they do help in bringing back investors, particularly when they've already left, when other factors ranging from valuations to currency to earnings are not looking as good. In an apparent response to this clamour, or maybe even others as well, Union Minister for Road Transport and Highways Nitin Gadkari on Monday urged industries to stop persistently demanding tax cuts, emphasising the government requires funds to implement welfare schemes for the underprivileged, according to a report in Business Standard.
He in turn promised that he would bring down India's logistics costs currently at 14-16% to about 9% within two years, making the country more competitive in global markets. For comparison, logistics costs stand at about 8% in China and 12% in the US and Europe. He also said that businesses should not repeatedly seek reductions in goods and services tax and other levies.
He says this is a continuous process. If we reduce the tax, you will ask for more because this is human psychology. He stressed that while the government wants to lower taxes, it cannot function effectively without revenue, and without it, they cannot run a welfare state.
Now this is of course an interesting post. Will you pay high taxes if you're able to achieve greater efficiency and operations and thus save there and see more bottom line impact, speaking for or as a company that is? It's tough, because I suspect people want both and feel that all of that should have been coming much earlier.
Thermal Coal Imports Are Up
India's imports of thermal coal, mainly used in power generation, fell for a sixth straight month in February, Reuters said, quoting ship tracking data. The reason attributed is that coal-fired power generation grew at a muted pace thanks to a slowdown in manufacturing activity, and this is the longest such streak since February 2022, when imports had declined for eight consecutive months. Manufacturing activity in India has slowed to its weakest pace in over a year, Reuters added.
A New Pharmaceutical Industry Pathway
Even as we find our way on the treacherous path that is tariff negotiations with the United States, there are industries which are on relatively strong footing and could grow, assuming other ducks fall in line. At the recent BioAsia conference in Hyderabad, which I participated in, Boston Consulting Group released a report saying that India's Contract Research Development and Manufacturing Organisation or CRDMO sector is expected to expand from about three and a half billion dollars today to about 22 to 25 billion dollars by 2035. That's in about 10 years time.
The reason for this, BCG says, is because of global pharmaceutical realignments, increasing biologics demand, and India's cost efficiencies. It also highlights India's strong foundation in small molecule manufacturing, while highlighting new opportunities in biologics, antibody drug conjugates or ADCs, gene therapies, and RNA therapeutics. There are, of course, regulatory and business challenges, and some of them are quite significant and seemingly more acute than what many other industries in India face.
I reached out to Vikash Agarwalla, Managing Director and Partner at BCG's healthcare practice based out of Delhi, and I began by asking him to define CRDMO for us, how it was different from generic drugs and exports of them and talk about its larger potential.
INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
Vikash Agarwalla: Look, CRDMO is a very different industry versus what India is known for, i.e. generics. CRDMO stands for Contract Research, Development and Manufacturing Organisation. These are companies which offer services to innovators.
And when I say innovators, it is big pharma, it is the biotechs, which are working on developing and commercialising molecules, which will be patent protected, right? Unlike the generics industry, where most of the products are launched after the patent has expired, right? So this is kind of an innovation in India versus make in India kind of a story that I'm talking about.
And they primarily help in three aspects to all biotechs and innovators. One is on the drug discovery side, then development and of course, manufacturing support during the clinical phase also during commercialisation. So that's what this industry does.
In short, they work as a service provider to big pharma and biotechs, and they only work on molecules which will be patent protected, right? And therefore, there's a lot more development progress needed.
Govindraj Ethiraj: Right. So this is a roughly three, three and a half billion dollar industry, which you are saying as Boston Consulting, that could become much, much bigger in the next couple of decades. Before we come to that, what illustrates or what are the best illustrations of successful contract, research and development projects?
Vikash Agarwalla: If we know that, you're talking about Indian companies, where Indian companies have done this kind of delivery multiple, I think a lot of these companies came together under the banner of IPSO very recently. Right. So you would know Singene, Paramal, Arijan, Newland, name a few of them.
They've been very successful. And also BVs, for example, they also have a very large innovator based EDMO business, but currently not a part of PSO though. So those are the five, I would say good names from India amongst the top companies in this particular sector.
And of course, Loris, that's also large.
Govindraj Ethiraj: And what would be a successful project that you are familiar with? Let's say, what kind of drug or medicine would they have manufactured, clinically tested and then sent back?
Vikash Agarwalla: So there are many, like even during COVID, many of these molecules that we all became household names were manufactured by many of these Indian companies and they helped not only in development, but also manufacturing and serving not just India's need, but also needs for patients all across the world.
Govindraj Ethiraj: So why do you feel that this is a large opportunity in itself as compared to, let's say other opportunities that India can specialise or evolve in?
Vikash Agarwalla: This is about innovation, right? India has been known for being the pharmacy capital of the world. And unlike the US and China now, there is a lot of work happening on innovation.
And when I say innovation, if you look at a generic product versus when it was under patent, the value difference would have been from a price point of view, almost 20x to times even 90x also, right? So which means that if you go on the innovation side, the value per unit volume equation goes up quite substantially, right? So it is an opportunity for India to move up that value curve.
The second bit is from a capability point of view, there are a lot of capabilities which are very similar in terms of where India is very strong, I would say capabilities around chemistry, around manufacturing, around development. So you can, you have the starting base of capabilities. And this also gives you an opportunity to move up the curve from a value per unit volume perspective.
And this is how, for example, China built a lot of scale companies, Wuxi, for example, you might know, one single company, which is almost 2x of the entire CRDMO sector in India, right? So the opportunity is huge in my view. There are a few factors which are kind of driving this opportunity in my mind.
If you were to look at it, there are four key ones, right? First one is there are these global supply chains which are realigning. So people are looking at de-risking their entire discovery, development, manufacturing process and looking at various alternatives to China, for example.
And India could be one of the natural alternatives in that context, right? The second one is also from an innovator's point of view as well. And when I'm talking about innovators, not just big pharma, but also biotics, they're also facing some sort of a pricing pressure, right?
Given some of these acts like the IRA. And that will mean that for the same amount of money, you need a larger runway to run, right? And India also provides cost advantage, which could be then helping some of these companies to get there.
The third thing is that the government of India is very keen on driving innovation out of India. And you'd have seen the BIRAC funding. There is a programme called PRIP, which is just about to get into the disbursement phase very shortly.
All of that is geared towards innovating in India, right? And that will also create some of the ecosystems which will help some of these CRDMOs to develop and grow. And lastly, but not the least, there is also a lot of, I would say, action around new modalities in the larger molecule space, where India can really leapfrog and provide a lot of, I would say, build a lot of capabilities and provide a lot of alternatives to biotechs and big pharma in the world.
Govindraj Ethiraj: Would it be correct to say that for most, let's say a lot of Indian manufacturing in drugs is in the generic space, that means we manufacture the powder or whatever and export it to countries like the US where it gets assembled and then sold. Is CRDMO a natural progression for this entire set or subset of companies?
Vikash Agarwalla: So I would say the work is slightly different. The capability, it is similar, not exactly the same, right? Because in one area, you are looking at something which was already developed and trying to, in a way, kind of in very crude form, copy paste, reverse engineer that.
Whereas on CRDMO, you are actually, while the capability is the same, you need chemists, right? You need manufacturing guys, quality folks, but you are actually doing something which has not been done before, right? You are actually synthesising something which is a new chemical entity or a new biologic entity, something which is new to the world, right?
And also it is a lot more, I would say, stringent from a process point of view, because this new drug will eventually find its way into a human being, right? So it has to be tested multiple times over and the entire safety, efficacy, everything has to be guaranteed through the whole process, right? While the basic building blocks could be similar, but the industry is very, very different, in my mind, at least, from the way the things get done and from the way the end customer looks at it.
And this also, I would say, done well, this can provide a significant leap to India's brand image, right? Globally, as being the centre for getting some of these most innovative products out there for the world.
Govindraj Ethiraj: Amongst the challenges that you pointed out, you said that the regulatory delays, which are three to 10 months longer than West, in order for the industry to, let's say, get going faster. And you also said that there is a longer startup time because of reliance on China and the West for raw materials. So how do we, I mean, what can India do to speed up here?
Vikash Agarwalla: See, here, I would say there are a couple of things. One big intervention would be from a, I would say, policy simplification point of view, right? What I mean by that is, if we are to be truly competitive in a global industry, rather than look at policies for this sector from the lens of what works in generics and then copy-pasting that onto this, there should be separate policies from a CRDMO lens, right?
A very good example could be picking up, say, what, for example, Korea is thinking right now or China is doing or what happens in the West and looking at our policies to kind of say what is something which are no-brainers and can be removed or eliminated or simplified, right? So that is one big lever. The second one, I think, which a lot of work is already starting to happen, but that needs a lot more fillip is around this whole tier one ecosystem suppliers to this industry.
Given India's scale currently, there are not enough quality suppliers who are present in India and therefore India has to import from China or the West depending on its small molecular biologics. So basically creating that ecosystem in India, which could be through a partnership with some of these suppliers and asking them to locate in India and make it in India and with some incentives maybe would be very, very helpful. The third could be also, I would say in the short term, basically speeding up the clearance time at different bottlenecks during the supply chain, which should be a joint work between, I would say, industry and the various authorities.
So those three things could really, I would say, de-bottleneck the timeline kind of an issue.
Govindraj Ethiraj: The CRDMO, I would say just so if generics is, let's say, lower down the value add chain, this is the next level. Let's say the more sort of original innovation and discoveries at the top level and would that be a correct way to stack it?
Vikash Agarwalla: This is the original discovery and innovation, right? So there is a new drug coming to this planet, right? And in that process, CRDMO is a service provider, right?
So they will provide a service in terms of the research side, the discovery side, during the clinical phase, or it would be during the manufacturing development and manufacturing phase, right? So they are actually working hand in glove with the Pfizer's, Novartis's of the world, and many biotechs which are in that particular area. Then once the drug goes off patent is when the generic industry comes in, right?
Govindraj Ethiraj: All right, Vikash, thank you so much for joining me.
Vikash Agarwalla: No worries. Thank you, Govind. Thanks for having me.
