The Resilience of the Newspaper Industry with Girish Agarwal
In a climate of digital news and short form video, how has newspapers managed to be profitable?
In Episode 2 of The Media Room, media expert and author Vanita Kohli-Khandekar sits down with Girish Agarwal, non-executive director of the DB Corp Ltd, to discuss the current state of the newspaper industry. They talk about the impact of the pandemic on newspapers, why newspapers are still going strong in India, trends in newspaper readership, competition with digital media and much more. Tune in for all the insights on the impact of the newspaper business.
NOTE: This transcript contains transcripts by a machine. Human eyes have gone through the script but there might still be errors in some of the text, so please refer to the audio in case you need to clarify any part. If you want to get in touch regarding any feedback, you can drop us a message on [email protected].
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TRANSCRIPT
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Hello and welcome to the Media Room. Who reads a newspaper?
421 million Indians going by the last Indian Readership Survey in 2019. India is among the handful of markets where newspapers hold steady. There were declines in circulation, readership and even revenues especially in the pandemic years (and we will come to that in a bit).
But the Indian (and Japanese) newspaper market has not seen the complete annihilation that say the American market has. From a high of 63 million copies in the early nineties, American newspaper circulation is now down to 21 million copies. Revenues are down from a high of over $50 billion in the nineties to about $20 billion now.
The pandemic had knocked Indian newspaper revenues from almost Rs 30,000 crore in 2019 to Rs 19,000 crore in 2020. These numbers reflect both advertising and pay revenues. But the business recovered and has grown year-on-year. It now stands at Rs 26,000 crore in total revenues. Indian newspaper firms have had record profits last year, thanks to falling newsprint prices among other factors.
Girish Agarwal, non executive director of DB Corp, has taken Dainik Bhaskar and its sibling brands into every major market in India over the last 2-3 decades.
DB Corp’s three major newspapers – Dainik Bhaskar in Hindi, Divya Bhaskar in Gujarati and Divya Marathi. Together they reach over 66 million people in 12 states. It is one of the few listed print firms. A bulk of the almost Rs 2500 crore it made in the financial year ending March 2024 came from newspapers. The rest was digital and radio.
I had a long chat with Girishji on the perception and reality of the newspaper business.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Hello Girish ji, welcome to the Media Room. Kaise chal raha hai business, everybody is talking about print going down, yeh, woh, aur aapki aur hamari baat ho chukki hai iske baare mein pichle saal. So I just want to know what's the scenario right now.
Girish Agarwal: So first of all, thank you Vanita for doing this podcast with me. I would like to take a strong objection to your question. Ek toh kya ghari sabse pehle, ek bahut purani film ka gaana tha ki kuch toh log kahenge aur logon ka kaam hai kehna.
Toh logon ki kehne pe mat jaye, actually mein dekhiye kya hoda. Toh sabse pehle baat karte hain ki print is not going down, is actually growing and flourishing. And a very important yardstick of any business to judge whether the business is doing good or bad is the balance sheet, the top line and the bottom line number.
So if you see the bottom line of every print newspaper organisation in India, the top one I'm talking about, number one and number two of each market, you'll see post-COVID, in fact pre-COVID also, if I compare their balance sheet from 2019-20, toh 2019-20 ke comparison mein last two years has been fantastic, the most profitable year. Whether it's me, DB Corp, whether it's Times of India, whether it is other publications, South ke hain aapke Malayalam, Manorama aur jitne bhi dekhenge aap sabko, toh sabki balance sheet mein kaafi heavy profits aagaya hai. So as an industry, they all are flourishing, very happy.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Girish ji, but this we discussed last year, but ismein how much of this is newsprint drive, this is moving up and down? Because even in television, there's been pressure on advertising. And I have several other questions which stem from that, but first I want you to enter.
Girish Agarwal: So dekhe, kisi bhi business mein, pehle aap bottom line dekhte hain, yeh bottom line kitni hai, aur yeh sustainable hai ki nahi? Correct? Toh agar aap sustainable ke point se dekhe utha ke, toh kisi bhi bottom line mein, jaise agar aap print ki CAGR bhi dekhiye, toh pichle 3-4 saal ki CAGR jo hai, sabki 15-20%.
Kyuki COVID mein sab chale gaye the, now they all are coming back, toh profitable ki aa rahi hai. Dootra hai, jaise aap steel industry mein baat karte hain, toh aapki steel industry mein puchte hain ki, yaar yeh batao, tonnage kitne badha hai, ya raw material se profit kitna aaya? Aap toh profit dekthe ho na, profit kaise aayega aur agle saal profit upar kaise aayega?
Lekin kya ho gaya hai, media mein, don't mind my saying, all of us, and which is very surprising, the journalists, those who are into media and those who cover media, have become extra hard on any kind of KPIs or in parameters to judge media. Toh pehle sawal karte hain, abhi bohot bura chal raha hai, phir bolte, accha chalo accha chal raha hai, toh aage chal paayega kya? Phir puchte, nahi nahi, iska kya hoga?
Arre bhai, kisi company ka profit 60% se grow kar raha hai, 3-4 saal mein, 60% year on year. Aapko wo 60% ki khushi nahi ho rahi, aap usi mein lage ho ki yeh laddoon mein toh diabetes ho jayegi aage chal ki aapke. Aani bhai, laddoon pehle, phir aap wo bhi nahi kha raha hai, aur usme bhi 4 sawal aapke.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Nahi, yeh you'll be unfair, because yeh hamara kaam hai, aur yeh aaje akbaar, aap pura bhi kaam hai, aap bhi karte hain, aap bahut sawal puchte hain, aur aapka pura campaign is pe hai ki sach dikhate hain, him and everything.
Girish Agarwal: Toh sach toh dikhayiye, aap toh kya ho raha hai, aapke jo mann mein, jo sawal aapke mann mein clouded hain, aap unhi clouded se dekhi, aapne sabse pehle yeh sawal pucha, ki suna hai media down chal raha hai, newspaper down chal raha hai, aapka hi sawal ho sakta tha, yeh batayiye, ki aapki balance sheet mein, jo profit bada hai 60% year on year, iski aage continue growth kitni rahegi?
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: That is exactly why I wanted to ask you that question, ki yeh perception hai, aur is perception ke baare mein, hum 2-3 saal se baat kar rahe hain aap ek perception hai, aur yeh perception by the way aap TV mein bhi mujhe dikh raha hai, ki business ka reality alag hai, but jo aapko baat chal rahi hai, or whatever is being discussed is totally different from the reality of the business. Why does this perception persist and what is a newspaper, I mean whether it is an INS or whether it is as DB Corp, how do you fight this?
Girish Agarwal: Perfect, that's a good point and question. Toh kya hota hai, media organisation apne baare mein bolne mein sharmate hain, ek psychological Hindustan mein ek parishani aur hai, koi bhi aadmi se aap pucha aur kaisa chal raha hai, theek chal raha hai, koi nahin bolega ki bhaiya bonus lag gaya, stock market mein isbaar 5 lakh rupee extra kama liye is maine mein, aur yeh hogaya, wo hogaya, theek chal raha hai. Are bhai, khulke bolo na yaar, bhai huma hi toh listed company hai, toh humein toh bolna padta hai, toh mere saap se, as a media company I must say, things are doing very good.
Challenges are always there in the market. Bagair challenge ke toh aap Bhagwan ho gaye hain, humaari mythology mein dekhiye, Bhagwan ji koi saare challenges milte the bicharon ke. Toh challenges sab ke paas hai, toh aap challenges mein soch ke chal lenge, ki aare aapko toh vanwaas mil gaya toh, abhi toh aapka, you are done.
Are bhai, vanwaas 14 saal ka, wapas aayenge uske baad. Toh yeh hi media mein hua, ki jab COVID ka vanwaas mila, humko saal-do-saal parishani hain, we are back again, and how?
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: But is it on the back of, because I also operate with very little data, especially readership circulation, aur aap kehte hain ki yeh zaruri nahi hain, because the advertisers know where we stand, where most of the top newspapers stand. But metrics nahi hain, toh hum kaise, matlab iska measurement kya hai, ya iska maftand kya hai ki, so there is one is the balance sheet and the PNL, which is doing well, okay fine. Has it been on the back of growing circulation, growing readership, growing advertising?
Can you just take us through the details on that one?
Girish Agarwal: Jo aapne teen metrics bole, number one metrics advertising, advertising is growing, number tha aapke paas hain, ussi ki base pe balance sheet badhi hai. Number two, costs are under control, kisi bhi business ke liye, cost control karna sabse bada point hota hai. Phir aaya sawal, readership aur circulation, toh mera maanna hai, circulation logon ki stable hain, kisi ke paas bada growth nahi hain, lekin covid ke baad jo copy gayi thi, usko logon ek level pe wapas la ke, usko maintain kar rahe hain.
Readership now, is a important aspect to understand, hum bolte hain readership badhi hai, kyunki logon ka involvement bada hai newspaper mein, pehle toh kya ho raha tha, logon ko sach aur jhoot mein, jaada farak samajh mein nahi aata tha. Lekin, thanks to covid, aur ye social media ke baad, aur aadmi ko clear hai ki, bhaiya social media toh sunlo jo sunlo, but ek baad print me padke barosa kar dena, check kar dena, verify kar dena. The credibility of newspapers have gone up, and because of that, we firmly believe that readership has also gone up.
Doosra ek advantage aur hua hai, ki jo pehle log fringe pe padte the chhota mota, ab newspapers, social media ke chakkar mein, verify karne ke liye, log thoda aur detail mein padte hain. Yeh ho sakta hai, ki agar maan lijiye ek aadmi, ausatan, 30 se 40 minute roj padta tha, he may have gone down from 40 minutes to say 25 minutes. Thoda time spent 5-7 minute kam ho gaya hoga, that possible.
Yeh bhi possible hai, ki aadmi saaton din nahi padta, kyunki ek aadmin travel bhi kar raha hota hai. Kisi ne poocha, arre yaar, agar saaton din akhbaar nahi padenge, bur toh akhbaar ke reader kaise hua hai? Sir, bura mat maaniyega, aap saaton din ghar pe bhi nahi rahte hai.
So then, I'm not technically qualified husband also, or a father also. So I'm just saying, mobility of people have increased. Toh 7 din ki jagah shayad mene, Monday ko nahi pada paper ho gaya, ya Thursday ko nahi pada, but that doesn't disqualify me from being a reader.
Aap maine maan lijiye, aaj 2 ghante WhatsApp nahi dekha, ya YouTube dekhe hu, mereko shayad 15 din ho gaye honge, that doesn't disqualify me from a YouTube reader, or a viewer. I see YouTube once a month, twice a month, five times a month. I'm a YouTube viewer.
Kya ho gaya hai, agar aap gaur karen, toh print ke, jo yardsticks hain, measurements hain, wo humne itni agni pariksha bana rakhi hai unki, ki reader agar aapko roj padega, aur agar usne aapko roj nahi pada, hafte mein 5 din hi pada, toh aap average issue reader nahi ho, aap total reader mein aaoge, casual reader mein aaj dege. Aap mujhe bataiye, YouTube aapko bolta hai, ki aap roj agar 15 minute aoge, tabhi main aapko YouTube ka viewer maanunga? Nahi.
Roj aadha ghanta dekhoge, tabhi aap Instagram ki viewer maane jaoge? Nahi. Aap TV mein cricket match dekhte hain, ki bhai poora 3 ghante dekhoge, toh toh viewer maanunga main aapko?
Arre bhai, maine ek minute dekh liya, band ho gaya, phir maine dekh liya 20 minute baad. Toh kya ho gaya hai? Unfortunately, yeh jo pichle 25 saal mein, ad agencies aur clients ne, print walon ke, newspapers walon ko, jo very strong KPIs deke rakha tha, ki inko toh bilkul ragad lenge, ki subah 10 baje se agar 5 minute bhi late aaye toh, aapki absent lag jayegi aaj office mein.
Wo working rakhi hai maane saath?
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Nahi nahi, agar aap total issue readership ke, average issue pe ja rahe hain, the fact is ki readership, measure hi nahi hui hai 5 saalu se.
Girish Agarwal: Toh bhai, wo kisi organisation ki problem thodi hai, wo toh jo log readership measure karte hain, unki problem hai. In fact, that's a big sabotaging the industry. Why?
Because ad agencies and clients, are not willing to pay money for IRS, for the readership survey.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Publishers are willing to pay. Whatever is the portion, we'll pay.
Girish Agarwal: But if they won't, bhai generally, there was a time when this contribution, used to be 50-50. Ab unke hai nahi, aam utna nahi kharcha karna chahate. Toh bhai, aapko data use karna hai, aap humko bol raho ki, aap hi paise do, hum aapka test lenge aapke paise ke upar.
Re bhai, aisa toh mat karo yaar. Aapko data use karna hai, bhai you are a big large company, you all pool in the money, irrespective of us, chali ulta chaliye. Main hu newspaper.
Main toh bolta hu, mere ko readership survey nahi kara. Kyuki mere ko toh barosa hai, mera readership hai na. Bhai aap mujhe batayiye, aaj Instagram ka koi survey karate hain.
Instagram koi survey deta hai, aapko third party kar aake kya. YouTube deta hai, koi survey third party kar aake kya.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Comscore ka data milta hai..
Girish Agarwal: It is not a data, where Comscore go and then talk to some 5 lakh people and say aapne YouTube dekha, Insta dekha. No. YouTube and Insta tell them, that so many people visited us.
And Comscore said, ki humko us bade sahab ne bola hai, itne lakh log unke paas aayen, toh aapne number bata diya. Toh bhai, aap aise IRS ko bolo, hum se pooch lein, ki humare paas kitne log reader aate hain, hum bata nahi ki itne reader aate hain humare paas. Wo aap pooch nahi rahe, aap boltein hain nahi.
Aapke case mein, humko toh 5 lakh logon ke paas jaake, face to face, dedh ganta laga ke poochna unse, ki tumne kal kya khaya tha, kal kya piya tha, kaunsa paper padha tha, kitne baje padha tha, kis kisne padha tha.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Girish ji, aap poori readership methodology ko hi, wo karenge toh phir kaise?
Girish Agarwal: Main bol raha hoon, ki jo advertising agencies aur clients hain, if they want data, please go ahead and do the research na. Aap mera wait kyon kar rahe ho yaar? Aapko toh mera test karna hai na, you have to judge me.
You are spending 20,000 crore rupees on the newspaper business. 20,000-22,000 crore ki advertising, they are spending on the newspapers. Is that right?
Minimum. Organised number. Unorganised mila jayenge, toh 30,000 crore rupee aaye.
30,000 crore rupees, you are spending on a medium, for advertising. And you don't want to spend 10 crores also, for getting a research done. Go and get a research done by spending 10 crores.
30,000 crores ka 10-20 crores toh, decimal mein bhi nahi aara mera number pe.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Par iska yeh nahi hone ka harjana kaun bhar raha hai? Ya iska koi harm ho raha hai ya nahi?
Girish Agarwal: Bhai, main toh newspaper organisation hoon, mera toh koi nukhsan nahi ho raha. Meri toh balance sheet badiya ho rahi hai, meri toh advertising growth ho rahi hai, mera kaam chal raha hai. Nukhsan agar thoda baut kisi ka ho raha hoga, toh ad agencies aur clients ka ho raha hai, ki unko khud ko nahi pata ki exactly kaha pe kitni reach hai.
Toh bhai, aapko reach chahiye, aap jaake malum karo. Pucho na, yaar toh hum pe bharosa karo. Bhai, jaise aaj ki tarikh mein, Google ke paas jaake aap bolte ho, yaar ki humare ko yeh campaign karna hai, itne million lakh logon tak pauchna hai, aap bata hi kaise karenge?
Google says, this is how we are going to do. You don't tell Google one second, I want to appoint a big four. That big four will do the audit of your system, to find out whether whatever number you are claiming that you will reach out to is correct or not.
You are trusting Google as a trusted partner. But when it comes to newspaper, you should trust us.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Google analytics versus newspaper declared numbers.
Girish Agarwal: As simple as that. You should do that. But, kya ho raha hai?
Aap logon ko wo schoolmaster ki aadat padhi hui yeh purani wali, ki saare publishers ko bithao, skill dikha ke, danda dikha ke, ki sit down, get up, get down. Arey yaar, come on.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: No, you are being unfair to the metric now. It has helped the industry grow a lot. Toh yeh toh aap nahi keh sakte, ki metric has not.
It has. Wo nahi hota, toh aapko abhi pata bhi nahi hota ki kitne. Kyonki pehle ka metric hai, uspe aap extrapolate kar rahi honge na.
Girish Agarwal: To be very honest, 75% of my advertisers are local and government. They don't use IRS. They don't use IRS or INRS.
Not only for me, even for the metro newspapers, 50-60% are the local advertisers. A local printer, a local real estate company, or a local school education, he has the biggest yardstick to check the response. What is that?
You release a full-page ad in Bhaskar or Times of India, and by evening, you come to know whether your sale is done, you are happy or not. You say, yes, mera maal bik gaya. That is the biggest proof of the pudding.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: But, Girish ji, does that make the newspaper more... And there's nothing wrong with it. I'm just curious.
Ki yeh performance-led sales or marketing ya advertising ki taraf zyada... Pehle aamara 50-50 type tha, 60-40 type tha. You know, national jo hum bol rahe the, national advertising versus local.
Now the local has become heavier, especially for leading newspapers like Bhaskar and all. Does that make it more performance-orientated, you know, more closer to digital in that sense, as a medium?
Girish Agarwal: See, as an organisation, I always believe that, from the advertising perspective, my 100% shift is towards performance marketing. There's nothing called local or national. Even national advertiser, when he releases an ad, what he wants, he wants a response.
He doesn't want to show the data point. He wants to show the number, maal bika ki nahi bika?
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Nahi, brand building nahi hoti kya?
Girish - Very pertinent question you have asked about the brand building. You may like to actually call up people, those who are spending 35,000 crore on the digital. Are they building brand or digital, or are they focussing on the performance marketing and digital?
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Zero, zero brand building on digital.
Girish Agarwal: Correct. Toh iska matlak kya hua, people, those who did this whole course from IIMs of the world, and some of them went abroad also, in that, those media and marketing and management school, where they were taught some chapters on the brand. Now, when they have come back on the job, they all feel nahi haan, brand toh sab side mein karo, performance dikhao hai.
Now, all those people, they need to understand that your performance can come only when you have a brand.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: But just to go back to the numbers for one minute, Girish ji, ki newsprint prizes pe kya scene hai abhi, and is that having any impact, and aapka andesha tha ki wo it is going to increase, and that we should use this bounty carefully. Last year, when we spoke, you talked that, you know yeh ek humko windfall mila hai, isko we should use it, deploy it carefully for growth. Also on revenues, after COVID, we've had long discussions, again, you and I, and with other publishers, on how to push up pay revenues for newspapers, which is a very tricky area.
Now, there, what progress has happened? DB ke example se aap kuch bata sakte hai kya?
Girish Agarwal: Dekhiye, last do saal mein, newsprint ke prices, dedh saal mein, newsprint ke prices stabilised humko. Not only Bhaskar, all the newspaper organisations, carefully use that bounty for the growth. Toh uska advantage sabko mila, saare newspapers ko, ki newsprint prizes maintain ho gaye, toh profitability par gayi, toh har aadmi ne apni technology mein, upgradation mein kharcha kar diya, people have invested in the journalism also.
Even if you see newspaper industry as an organisation, is also offering a pretty decent pay, increase every year, to their team members also. Unlike few industries, like they are saying, no, no, there is no growth in our industry, so we'll not be able to hire, you know, offer any increment to people and all that. So I'm very proud that our industry is doing so, that we are offering regular increment to our employees, our team members.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: What has been Bhaskar, I mean, all the titles that you have, you said you were going to invest in editorial, that you were going to invest more in digital. How has that, some sense of where that is headed? Where is Bhaskar?
Girish Agarwal: We have done a lot of investment, and I'm happy to share with you, my salary bill as a company, DB Corp salary bill, is almost 460 crore rupees a year. We pay 460 crore as a salary to our team members. I'm very proud of that.
And we are increasing it every year. Yes, across Dainik Bhaskar, DB Corp. And we're increasing it every year.
And as far as the further expansion is concerned, we have invested very heavily in our journalism. We have hired more journalists. We have hired more stringers across.
We have improved our all technological system for the editorial person to file a story, you know, for more fact-checking for him. So that if he's in a ground doing a story, sitting in some remote corner of Rajasthan or Madhya Pradesh or Bihar or Gujarat, he's able to get the access to the data and training so that he's able to file a more impactful, verified story as such.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: For 2025-26, how do you see the year panning out for Indian journalism and for Indian news media, newspapers?
Girish Agarwal: So I believe India is having a real good opportunity for the journalism and the news media all put together, whether the print or whatever other mediums are. But at the same time, as a journalist or the news organisation, you have to be very ethical. You've got to be honest to yourself and to your readers and viewers.
And you can't take them for granted. You know, especially at times, some people feel I can do a desk story. You understand what I mean by desk story, correct?
Or in a TV language, what we call a studio story. You sit down, four people sit in front of you and let's talk for an hour. So people are understanding, they're able to see through it now.
You know, whether you are a newspaper or whether you are any medium, you should really come across, do your job, inform people. Some people say, no, no, no, no, we want to talk about government. Life is beyond government also.
Please understand as a reader, I want to know about government. I want to know what they are doing. But life is beyond that also.
I want to also understand what is happening in the ground. What is happening in the villages where the electricity is yet to come? What is happening in the places where the infrastructure, they don't even know what infrastructure means.
Or the places where the corruption is high or places where the social stigma of certain things is so high that people are not able to live a comfortable life. You know, the newspaper has to do all these jobs. Newspaper need to inform people.
And I think, especially, I must say thanks to social media. Because of social media, there's a huge awareness now about every topic. Eight years ago, seven years ago, we wanted to talk about many topics.
But people didn't know. People didn't know what was happening on a percentage. So, social media brought awareness about topics to everyone.
Today, we talk about rupee and dollar. How much rupee is getting beaten and dollar is going up. Eight years ago, many people didn't even know what was happening.
But thanks to social media, people may not know, but by making memes, they know a lot. Correct?
In such a situation, newspaper and news organisation play a huge role. Because social media has told that person the topic. But he doesn't know the details.
So, if you can explain the details to him, that why is it happening? Why is it not happening? So, I think that's what.
That's why social media has done a big job for journalists. It has informed the person about the topic. Now, if you can give him content in that, can inform him, you will be remembered as a great journalist.
Or a news organisation.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Is it becoming tougher to do on-ground journalism now?
Girish Agarwal: Look, if you are asking me, in my living memory of last 35 years of being into news organisation, my life was like this. We have been watching from ‘83/’82. Sometimes someone gets happy, sometimes someone gets angry.
So, you shouldn't think about being happy or angry. This is your job.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: You talked about social media. You know, one of the things, and again, this is not just in newspapers. I am seeing it in TV as well.
I am seeing it in other mediums as well. Readership is increasing on your digital. You know, you get a lot of readers.
And if I look at the top 20 news sites in India also, some of the top newspapers will always be there. In spite of the fact that there's a Google and a Meta. But somehow that monetization thing does not happen.
Or that clubbing of whether it is the audience and convincing the advertiser that I am also a force here. Because, first of all, this is a Google-Meta-dominated ecosystem. I am talking about 57,000 crores of digital advertising.
I am talking about 2023 crores. It says 70% of it goes to Google Meta. The remaining 30% will fight for it.
Whether it is television, whether it is other OTTs, whoever. In such an ecosystem, for a newspaper organisation or brand to hold on to its audience and use that digital growth to propel revenues. How is that battle going on?
At what stage is it? For the TV and for the industry.
Girish Agarwal: You just said Google and Meta. And then you said news websites. Do Google and Meta appoint journalists themselves and publish news?
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: They become the doorway through which people come to news.
Girish Agarwal: Correct. So, if I enter through the door of Google, where will I go?
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: But that revenue goes to Google. I am talking about that point of view.
Girish Agarwal: Revenue is secondary. Let's come to the content first. If I enter through the door of Google, I will go to a credible news source.
For example, I read a newspaper or I saw a magazine or I saw an individual blogger. But what are people thinking now? If I enter through the door of Google, then it should come to me.
Why should it come to you? First make your credibility. This is a big challenge with news organisations.
You have to understand that in the last 15 years, newspaper organisations have taken it for granted that their work is going well. Life is hunky-dory. So, let's go.
Life is hunky-dory, but if the door has changed after you, then instead of coming to you directly, people go to Google, for example, or Meta. If the readers of Google and Meta can use our door and read their articles, then they will share their revenue with you. But if they know that they can come through the door and if they can't read Vinita ji's article, then they will read someone else's.
They will come to read Vinita ji's article. So, it's the same. If you go to a cinema, then you are not going to Inox Cinema.
You are not going to PVR or other cinemas. You go to watch a film. You don't say, let's go to Inox and watch anything there for 3 hours.
It doesn't happen like that. You decide which film you want to watch and you go to watch that film in that theatre. It means that producer, director, and actor work hard and make so much content in that film, then people go to watch it.
But now you think, why watch a film in my language, let's watch a South Indian film, dubbing doesn't matter, it will work. It's fun. This is a big example.
Till now, people used to read English subtitles and work. Now, South Indian movies, which used to be said, who will watch it in our part of the country? They are getting the most revenue.
Why? They have related to the consumer. Language is secondary.
Emotion is first. Language is secondary. Emotion is the first thing.
We didn't pay attention to it. All these journalists, you have to understand, how hard you work. You need wo work more. There is an opportunity in front of you.
As far as monetization is concerned, if the funda is clear that a person is coming in your name, then Google or Meta or whoever, will give you your due share. Why not? You have to run your own shop.
DNPA, Digital Newspaper Organisation, they have complained to CCI against Google and Facebook. CCI is listening to them. I am very positive.
They will bring some fair order. Secondly, I think, Google and Facebook are also watching. The day they realise, this news organisation is very important.
If this doesn't happen in our house, then our people won't come in.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: But Meta has removed the news from their system.
Girish Agarwal: Very good. Meta said, if you want to read news, then come to our house. They did very well.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Google says that news is only 6% of my total traffic.
Girish Agarwal: Then they said it and you agreed. It's their data. You don't know.
If Google says that our traffic is only 6%, then Google should announce tomorrow itself that from now on, our news is also closed. If you want to read news, then go to your websites. Which is not happening.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: There was a growth area radio and even TV. I think you guys did a cable business if I am not mistaken.
Girish Agarwal: For newspapers, the radio business came in this hope that after playing songs, news will be allowed. For the last 18 years, all radio people are singing songs. Government doesn't allow them to read news.
Because of that, all radio people, if you look at the profitability of the radio business, it's not very good. How long will they sing songs? They have 50 sources of songs.
Government wants news to be allowed in print and digital. Radio is also allowing it. They made them responsible.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: They allowed it on AIR feed. I think 20% or something was allowed.
Girish Agarwal: They allowed it so that you can read scripts. It's not journalism, but you have become a TV anchor. We are journalists.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Why is this? Because I feel radio is a great medium especially for newspaper companies. Because your reach is similar.
It's deep, local, hyper-local. I think you have two brands now?
Girish Agarwal: One is MyFM 94.3 and 94.3 MyFM is in 30 cities.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Yes, correct. I remember talking to them. But it's not gone beyond a point.
It has not delivered on its promise.
Girish Agarwal: No, don't say that. All the songs we promised have been sung. But the government gave us hope that we will allow news at some point of time.
We are waiting for news. You should talk to the government about that.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Girish ji, have you seen anywhere in the world? Everybody uses the example of New York Times and Guardian and this and that. Guardian, New York Times, Economist and FT.
These are 2-3 examples. Out of these 3, ownership is very trust-based. So, Guardian is trust-based, Economist and FT also is that Japanese company's employees own the majority in FT.
So, my question to you is have you seen examples where.. and India is very blessed in the sense that we are reasonably robust newspaper market.. Home delivery is still there. Have you seen examples where in developed markets, newspapers have bucked or other markets like India where newspapers have bucked the trend as far as competition with other media is concerned or they have managed to stop the decline.
Because in US, I know local newspapers have suffered the most. In Europe, local newspapers have suffered the most. But the ones which have a global feel, they managed to survive.
What is your sense? What are the big disruptions or innovations you might have seen globally which you think are interesting from an India perspective?
Girish Agarwal: If you talk about US, or if you look at Japan, the newspapers are very strong in Japan. So, where organisations and society have understood the system and have worked hard, like in US, newspapers have become totally unaffordable. Newspapers cost $2, $1, $3 per day.
Now, if you ask for $35, $40, $50 per month, you don't even deliver to them. You say, we will charge for that separately. Obviously, they say, leave it.
In India, Indian newspapers have done a great job. What is the price of our newspaper? Rs.
4, Rs. 5, Rs. 7 maximum.
In today's date, Rs. 4, Rs. 5 there is no tea in any village in India.
So, what happened is newspapers have consciously worked on the pricing. No one should think that it has become expensive. It is a psychological thing.
Believe it or not, I was at the airport today. Let's eat something. There is a food code.
Vada Pav was for Rs. 300. It is always expensive at the airport.
So, Vada Pav for Rs. 300 doesn’t sit mentally with me... So, I didn't buy it.
Don't think like that. Believe it or not, there is a psychological barrier. I would have been more happy paying Rs.300 for a Paneer Tikka or a sandwich. But Vada Pav in my mind is for Rs. 20-30.
So, I didn't buy it. Similarly, there is a price band in the mind of the consumer. It is not more than this.
If I don't open it today, it will cost Rs. 20. You can sell it for Rs.
20. Then it will be out of your reach.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: But has that impacted the quality, Girish? I am not asking you or Bhaskar. We don't have a global quality newspaper in this country.
Do we?
Girish Agarwal: Why not? You have given a statement. We don't have a global quality newspaper.
Today, you can look at any newspaper in the US or Europe. Our newspapers are in comparison to them. If we are a little short, then the quality of the newsprint will be low.
Because our newsprint, our Indian newsprint, which we use 70%, has a poor quality. Our roads are weak. What will we do now?
You can't bring the roads of Europe here. Your contractor will be local. He will make the roads he makes.
The local manufacturers make 70% of our newsprint. We buy it from them. There is a weakness in the quality.
If we go and say that we will bring 100% newsprint from abroad, we can't do that. I don't have the availability to tell Russia that we need three times the supply from India. We don't have the resources.
The price will double. You have to manage the local newsprint. Otherwise, look at the systems, the process, the journalists.
Look at the technology. I think today, I have been to practically all the large newspaper organisations. If you like their office in London or New York, then it's okay.
But our office is also good.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: I have been to the office of FT and Guardian. I have seen all the offices.
Girish Agarwal: So, it's not about the office. It's about the quality. Indian newspapers are doing a fantastic job.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: How long do you think home delivery can remain? It's a fantastic thing. I think it's the big survival mechanism for the newspaper business in India.
Not survival. It's a big growth and survival mechanism. How long do you think it can hold out?
Girish Agarwal: Every newspaper organisation must ensure and whatever it takes for that, this home delivery mechanism should continue forever. Whatever it takes. If you leave this, what is Zomato?
It's home delivery. If Zomato says, there is no home delivery, stand outside the restaurant and they will deliver it to you there. I will eat there.
So, this home delivery mechanism is fixed. Whatever it takes, we must ensure that this continues and survives and flourishes like that.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Any particular challenge that you see in the coming couple of years which you would like to highlight?
Girish Agarwal: Yes. Two challenges. One internal, second external.
I will start with the internal. In the internal challenge, all newspaper organisations have to keep themselves very motivated. We should not get carried away by wrong things. They say, digital will come, what will happen next?
Bill Gates came to India in New Delhi in 2000. And in 2000, he announced in Maurya in Delhi, that I think it's a matter of time for newspapers. It's been 24 years now.
Their windows is running and Our newspapers are running properly. The point should be clear that we get carried away that this will happen, that will happen.
Keep working, nothing will happen. You will grow. One door will be closed and another will be opened.
Positivity is very important and focus on work. And we have to be honest with ourselves. We have to work hard.
Some people say, there is a lot of problem in journalism. Current system doesn't allow you this or that. Forget the current system, the old system also used to trouble us.
So, it's the job of the system to trouble you. Why do you work on the system? You have to work hard for the reader.
Work hard and stay positive. Coming to the second one, which is external challenge.
External challenge is that they loose talk while walking.
Maybe there is a little problem in the newspapers these days. Where is the problem? Good work is going on.
If there is a problem, for example, FMCG is the biggest company in India. Correct? Their total tonnage has not grown in 5 years.
There is a problem in FMCG category. But does any person meet the owner of the company and ask him, I am in a lot of trouble these days. Why?
Because they know don't worry, it's a matter of time. It will grow in 2 years. So, what is the problem in the newspaper industry?
If you don't use a particular soap then will the company will shut down? You have to come out of this mentality. For example, you stopped reading a newspaper and shifted to digital.
You are not the universe. You are not the universe. So, look at the positivity.
I am always looking at what is happening in the world. I am talking about a simple balance sheet. Look at the balance sheet of newspapers.
Our profit this year is above 600 crores. We closed it last year, in 2023-2024. So, there is a lot of growth.
If you plateau for 1-2 years, it means that there is a weakness in your hard work. Work harder. Very good to hear that.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: One thing always comes to my mind that you are a very distracted consumer. You are a very distracted reader.
Girish Agarwal: Consider it an advantage.. If you are a distracted consumer, then consider it an advantage. Do you remember what we used to say 20 years ago?
The reader of a newspaper is very rigid. The one who reads it does not leave it. It is fixed.
He has to read the front page, the back page, the same newspaper. You were worried at that time that he is very rigid. Today, he is very fragmented.
If he is fragmented, then it is an opportunity. Convince him. What is happening?
You don't want to work hard. That's why you started looking for words like fragmented, disoriented, etc. Work hard.
You have worked so hard that he is looking for words to read.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: That's a great note to end on. Thank you so much, Girishji, for talking to me.
Girish Agarwal: Always a pleasure.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: The funny part is that news is a huge driver of online consumption, but many of the brands that generate this online readership get nothing from it. The online revenues of most newspaper firms hover between 6-12 per cent of their topline. And circulation of the physical paper continues to be under pressure with publishers losing anywhere from 10-20 per cent in copies sold. Much of this, however, is guesswork. There are no metrics and going by what Agarwal says, it doesn’t look like the industry is interested is having one, as newspapers become more about performance marketing and local connect and less about reach and brand building. Advertisers seem to like this. For every thousand people that a newspaper reaches, it can charge six times the price that digital can. For the Indian print business, the good times continue to roll, for now.
