Markets Edge Up Even As Prominent IPOs Get Hammered
It was a warm but bright Monday as markets started somewhat shakily but then edged up and stayed there despite some selling as is usually the case
On Episode 533 of The Core Report, financial journalist Govindraj Ethiraj talks to Surendra Mehta, National Secretary at the Indian Bullion & Jewellers Association as well as Amit Prothi, Director General at the Coalition for Disaster Resilient Infrastructure (CDRI).
SHOW NOTES
(00:00) Stories of the Day
(01:00) Markets edge up even as prominent IPOs get hammered.
(02:18) Trump has wiped out an India’s entire market capitalisation on Wall Street, at close to $5 trillion
(06:05) Why it makes sense to buy gold in India and not Dubai
(15:40) Computer programming jobs are disappearing at a dramatic rate in the US
(16:38) Building resiliency in climate change, in telecom infrastructure
NOTE: This transcript contains the host's monologue and includes interview transcripts by a machine. Human eyes have gone through the script but there might still be errors in some of the text, so please refer to the audio in case you need to clarify any part. If you want to get in touch regarding any feedback, you can drop us a message on [email protected].
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Good morning, it's Tuesday the 18th of March and this is Govind Raj Yathiraj, headquartered in Broadcasting and Streaming from, as always, a warm Mumbai, India's financial capital. Our top stories and themes.
The stock markets edge up even as prominent initial public offers that entered the market recently get hammered.
Donald Trump has wiped out an entire India's market capitalisation on Wall Street at close to $5 trillion.
Why it makes sense to buy gold in India and not Dubai.
Building resilience in climate change, in telecom infrastructure, lessons for other industries as well.
And computer programming jobs are disappearing at a dramatic rate in the United States.
The Markets Edge Up But Not IPOs
It was a warm but bright Monday as markets started somewhat shakily but then edged up and stayed there despite some selling as is usually the case into the trading day. Financial stocks were amongst the key drivers of the indices on Monday. The BSE Sensex finally closed 341 points higher at 74,170 after some swinging, while the NSE Nifty 50 was up 112 points at 22,509.
In the broader market, the BSE Mid Cap Index was up about 0.8 or just under 1%. The Small Cap Index was mostly unchanged. The overall market breadth, despite the markets going up at the benchmark level, was negative according to the business standard.
There were 2,500 declining stocks against 1,617 advancing stocks. There was carnage among several IPO stocks, a good reminder that most of them only seem to work for smart and active traders who can sell on listing. The business standard once again pointed out that many recent IPOs tanked up to 15% or hit new lows just on Monday.
The names included prominent ones thanks to all the money spent on hype and marketing, so you know which ones. Many, of course, were never profitable to start with. So maybe in the next round, investors will be or could be more cautious with where they put their money when it comes to IPOs or how they select them.
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Wall Street has seen a $5 trillion correction, more than the entire value of the Indian stock market, which of course has declined in recent months. This is also the worst period since 2009 when Barack Obama took office amidst the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression, according to author and speaker Scott Galloway. Since mid-February, the S&P has lost more than $5 trillion or almost six times the value of the entire trade deficit that Donald Trump's tariffs are attempting to narrow.
On the other hand, Galloway also says that valuations were stretched and the S&P had gone through 343 days without correction. Valuations of the S&P 500 were around 25x compared to long-term averages of about 16x. On the other hand, the big losers are actually the Trump trades, which also highlights the challenges or maybe even the fallacy of investing behind a specific political figure in a broad market.
The Galloway newsletter points out that the Trump trades range from Amazon, Apple, Google, Nvidia, as well as Citigroup, Morgan Stanley, and Goldman Sachs, apart from many small caps. And of course, there's Tesla, which is down about 38% this year. Meanwhile, on Monday, futures were trading lower and the markets were low after U.S. Treasury Secretary Scott Bessen dismissed recent declines as healthy, reinforcing the view that the Trump administration was unlikely to step in to boost markets, according to Bloomberg. S&P 500 and Nasdaq 100 contracts were down as Bessen told NBC's Meet the Press on Sunday that he was not worried by the slump in U.S. stocks after that $5 trillion was wiped out. A strategist at Rabobank told Bloomberg that this statement caused alarm for many Wall Street types who've been counting on Bessen to be the second Trump administration's voice of reason on economic policy. Another geopolitical risk also opened up, meanwhile, with the U.S. threatening unrelenting military strikes on Yemen's Houthi militants who said they would respond by targeting U.S. vessels in the Red Sea. That also took up Brent crude futures above the $71 a barrel mark.
The Rupee Firms Up
The Indian rupee closed at its highest level in three weeks on Monday and remained below the Rs.
87 to $1 mark as the dollar continued to weaken. The rupee ended about 20 paise stronger at Rs. 86.80 against the U.S. dollar, the highest since February 24, according to Bloomberg data quoted by Business Standard. The rupee has gained albeit slightly in March after seeing five consecutive months of decline. But the significant move is this. The dollar index, a measure of the value of the U.S. dollar relative to a basket of foreign currencies, was down 0.1 percent, extending the monthly fall to about 3.6 percent and the largest or highest since November 2022, according to Business Standard. And back to crude, prices rose again as China said it would take steps to revive consumption by boosting incomes and Brent is now over $71 a barrel.
Net Direct Taxes Are Up
Net direct tax collections in India grew about 13 percent to about Rs. 21 trillion so far this year, thanks to a higher advance tax mop-up, according to data released on Monday. According to data released by the Central Board of Direct Taxes, net non-corporate taxes, which is mostly personal income tax, grew 17 percent year-on-year to about $11 trillion, while advance tax collections under the corporate tax category rose about 12 percent to about Rs. 7.5 trillion. So the point here is obviously that the personal income tax category or the non-corporate tax category is growing faster than the corporate tax category. The last installment of advance tax payments were due on March 15 for the current financial year.
Where are gold prices going?
Gold prices firmed up on Monday, trading near an all-time high scale in the previous session. Spot gold is about $2,997 an ounce, which is around $3,000 an ounce after hitting a record high of $3,004 on Friday, according to Reuters. Analysts are predicting the $3,150 levels in coming months, though quicker than expected, and more on that shortly.
U.S. Treasury Secretary Scott Bessen said on Sunday that there are no guarantees there will not be a recession in the United States, which obviously has compounded investor worries of funding pending economic downturn thanks to Trump's trade policies. All of this is, of course, good for gold and gold prices in the world and in India. Bullion tends to do well in a low interest rate environment.
It is also seen as a hedge against economic uncertainties, geopolitical turmoil, and inflation. Prices in India, which track global prices, are also at highs. The gold market overall has been quite active, including facing some challenges of physical gold shipped to the United States, with traders there trying to beat possible tariffs on imports there.
Gold is a physical market, as we will be reminded shortly. On the other hand, prices in India are quite reasonable and competitive in case you were thinking of buying versus buying outside India. I spoke with Surendra Mehta, National Secretary of the Indian Bullion and Jewellers Association, which was set up in 1919, which also publishes the benchmark gold price rates in the country.
And I began by asking him to walk us through the reasons why prices were ruling so high.
INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
Surendra Mehta: Some of the reasons why the gold prices are going high, especially after 2020. The first being gold is a very good hedge against inflation. And we saw inflation at a record high after 2020.
Of course, now in countries like the US, it is a little bit lower. The second big reason was geopolitical tension. We have seen Israel, Hamas.
We have seen Russia, Ukraine. That is the second reason. The third big reason was levying tariffs by the Trump government, and then reciprocal tariffs.
And the fourth big reason is central bank buying. The fifth big reason is ETF buying. The sixth big reason is the fall in the equity market.
These are the major reasons why people have moved to gold. And every analyst has been recommending in the last five years that some part of your portfolio must be in the gold. And so the demand for gold has also increased, especially in countries like India, China, and many other countries.
So these are the major reasons. Most of these reasons I mean to say are still continuing. So that is the reason why the gold prices are high, and it will continue to remain high unless we have geopolitical tension reduced, unless we have levying of tariffs by the US government has been reduced, or inflation has been under control.
So all these reasons still continue. So why could the gold prices not go high?
Govindraj Ethiraj: Right. I'll come back to the global scenario in a moment. Back in India, right now, obviously, we track global prices.
Are you seeing a lot of imports of gold as well beyond what is normal, including through, let's say, smuggling and so on?
Surendra Mehta: First of all, we need to understand that smuggling is happening. Earlier, we used to have a custom duty of 15% on gold when it is imported into India. Now we have only 6%.
So now, with the reduction of 9% duty, there is no advantage or there is no real reason why somebody would smuggle the gold. In fact, what is happening is most of the people who are travelling to Dubai are buying gold on the pretext that Dubai has a better quality of gold, for they forget that India only exports gold to Dubai. Because most Indians buy the same gold, which India has exported.
Now the duty in India is 6%. There is a 3% GST. So there is an overall 9% impact on the gold purchase. While you buy from Dubai, you pay 5% back.
So overall, there is only a 4% benefit. And for 4% benefit, if somebody is trying to smuggle, then I think there is a Havala cost that he also needs to take into consideration. So there is no big advantage, except that few buyers from Dubai, I would say travellers who are going to Dubai are bringing gold back to our country.
Govindraj Ethiraj: Right. And when you said that we are exporting gold to Dubai, are you talking about, is this in the form of jewellery or bullion or? In the form of jewellery.
We import bullion and we export jewellery. And is this a large amount? I mean, compared to let's say previous years?
Surendra Mehta: Yeah, yeah, because there is a UAE SEPA agreement by virtue of which the duty on gold is 1% less, if the gold is imported under the UAE SEPA agreement, which is in the form of bullion. And when we export to Dubai, they get a 5% VAT advantage provided it is exported out of their country. But if you buy from Dubai itself, then you have to pay 5% VAT.
So where is the advantage in smuggling?
Govindraj Ethiraj: And amongst other countries or all countries that India could potentially import gold from, and I'm talking about retail, would Dubai be the cheapest or at least that's the belief?
Surendra Mehta: Dubai is the cheapest because there is an UAE SEPA agreement by virtue of which you pay 1% less duty. So naturally Dubai is the cheapest.
Govindraj Ethiraj: Okay, so let me come back to the global market. So we've also been reading reports in the last couple of months about the shortage of physical gold, the logistical challenges of shipping gold to New York, because obviously, I think people were trying to anticipate higher tariffs on imported gold. It seems to have been causing pressure on gold stored in the UK, Australia and so on.
How is this, if at all, affecting us?
Surendra Mehta: Those were all the rumours. First of all, nobody understood how logistically the gold needed to be moved from the UK vault to the ComEx vault in the US. People do not understand that there is something called allocated gold and there is something called unallocated gold.
Also, the gold bars in the UK cannot be moved to the ComEx because both have a different denomination. Most of the bars in the UK are 12.5 kg bars and most of the bars in ComEx are 1 kg bars. So first they needed to be moved to a Swiss refinery.
From there, they were reclassified into 1 kg bar and this was only a logistic challenge. So it naturally takes time. Imagine about 650 tonnes of gold moved out of the London vault to the ComEx vault.
It is going to take a lot of time. It is not by virtue of clicking a button. You need to move the physical quantity.
Like in India, if in NCX, there is a delivery of 1 tonne of gold, which has never happened. And if such a huge delivery comes, probably they have to work overnight or maybe 2 days overnight. Then only they can actually deliver those kinds of gold.
So this was 650 tonnes and you are moving out of one country, taking it to Switzerland or taking it to some other refinery for recasting and then it is going to the ComEx vault. So this was a very big task. So all these were rumours.
Now everything has been moved and that is why the lease rate also has gone down now because earlier we have seen the difference between spot price and future price was almost $60. Now it is only $10 to $12.
Govindraj Ethiraj: So two questions. One linked to the previous one. Is there any impact of all of this on India?
And secondly, obviously when prices are high in India, demand tends to slow down. So how are you seeing that right now?
Surendra Mehta: See, whenever the prices will go higher, the demand will definitely go lower. And most of the analysts are predicting that gold can go up to say $3,150 or $3,200. Now for an investor, why would he take a risk if he is only expecting 5% higher prices from here?
So probably investors are not going to invest at this price because in the last 5% zone, it is a very high risk zone. Secondly, because of higher prices, naturally the consumer demand for jewellery always reduces except those who are waiting in their house, they need to buy. So the demand will definitely go down.
And this is the first time it has gone down, not only for consumers, but due to investors opting out at such high prices.
Govindraj Ethiraj: Right. And you're not seeing any impact, just to go back to the previous question, of physical gold supplies globally or into India?
Surendra Mehta: No, no, no. I don't think so. Because everyone, most of the people who have never understood how the gold is moved, they thought it is like, you know, some equity market transaction and everything in demand form with a click of a button, it can be transferred.
No, it cannot be transferred. This is a physical commodity. How will you transfer 650 or 700 tonnes of gold?
So there are logistic challenges, naturally.
Govindraj Ethiraj: Finally, to round up your outlook on prices for the next few months.
Surendra Mehta: I personally feel that we are still looking at $3,150 in the international market. That would be my first target and probably how we reach out to $3,150. If $3,150 comes in the next one or two months, then probably my target would become higher.
But I have my initial target of only $3,150. There I see a lot of resistance. But if you ask me my lower target in 2025, my lower target in 2025 is as low as $2,100 to $200.
Govindraj Ethiraj: Oh, that's quite a swing. Right. Mr. Mehta, thank you so much for joining me.
Surendra Mehta: Thank you.
Computer Jobs Are Gone
More than a quarter of all computer programming jobs have vanished in the past two years. In the United States, the worst downturn the industry has ever seen, according to a report in The Washington Post. Things are sufficiently abysmal that computer programming ranks amongst 10 hardest-hit occupations of 420-plus jobs, for which The Washington Post acquired data from the U.S. Bureau of Labour Statistics. It says that learning to code was supposed to save millions of what have been liberal arts majors. But today there are fewer programmers in the United States than at any point since 1980. And that's a 45-year period in which America's total workforce has grown by about 75%.
This is obviously something that Indian policymakers have to watch out for, given that artificial intelligence is slowly taking over particularly low-end coding across India and something that we've been now seeing Indian tech companies talk about quite frequently.
Preparing For Disaster
Even as we speak of satellite-based internet, remember voice and data transmission both depend on telecom towers across India, of which there could be close to about 750,000 of them. The effective functioning of these we take for granted, but it is critical, or rather, their effective functioning is critical to the well-being of the people and the economy, particularly at a time of natural disasters. As a background, according to the United Nations Informed Risk One Index, India is ranked 35th out of 191 countries in 2024-25.
So, in India, over 58% of the land is vulnerable to earthquakes, 12% to floods, 15% to landslides, and more than 10% to forest fires. Of India's 7,500 kilometres of coastlines, almost 5,700 kilometres are at risk from cyclones and tsunamis, and telecommunication infrastructure, which is obviously spread throughout the country, is susceptible to these hazards. The government-supported Global Coalition of Disaster-Resilient Infrastructure, or CDRI, recently put out a report on telecom towers, which mapped towers across different parts of India, including Assam, Gujarat, Tamil Nadu, and Uttarakhand, and looked at the potential impact of disasters ranging from cyclones, floods, earthquakes, and landslides, among others.
So, the interesting point is that telecom infrastructure is mostly controlled by the private sector, but has to work seamlessly with government or disaster management authorities to ensure proper response and recovery. The understanding and response to a specific area like telecom infrastructure is also useful to understand and illustrate the larger and larger impact of natural disasters, including those brought about by climate change, and what countries like India and the public and private sectors within them could be doing to prepare for them. I spoke to Amit Proti, the Director-General of the CDRI, and I began by asking him how he was seeing the public and private sectors navigate this new world together.
INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
Amit Prothi: Thanks, Govind. I think this is an incredibly important topic. You highlighted your own experience and let me highlight mine.
I happened to be in the Kathmandu earthquake, if you remember 2015, Nepal had a massive earthquake, and I actually was in Kathmandu that day. And as the earthquake hit, and that earthquake lasted for about close to a minute, as it hit, I just had the foresight of sending a text message to my wife saying, she was in Vietnam, and I just sent a message saying, there's an earthquake in Kathmandu, and I'm okay. And then for the next hour and a half, you couldn't connect to anybody, there were no data signals that went through.
And I had a Nepalese guide with me, I was walking in the hillside at that time, who couldn't reach his wife. And after about an hour and a half, he finally got through and found that his family was okay. And this Gorkha man, this strong Gorkha man suddenly sat down on the ground and started bawling.
That has always stayed with me because I think it is really important to recognise how important telecommunication is for us not only on a day-to-day basis, but actually during an event such as an earthquake or cyclone, etc., connectivity is absolutely crucial. Now, the question that you've raised, you know, it's how do we as CDRI look at this critical infrastructure from a point of view of saying, this is a privatised industry, there are private players here, what is the role of the government and the private sector in trying to ensure that disruption to services is minimised when there is a hazard? Communication continues to function, you know, that's the intention.
So the study, we actually worked very closely with DOT and we started to unpackage, how do you even decipher what is the risk? Some of it could actually be just maintenance related. When you talk about, you know, the risk of floods, for example, sometimes you're dependent on these towers that provide telecommunication service, require power.
These, you know, the telecommunication and sometimes you may not have enough fuel to actually support these towers and hence the problem is not that the tower actually is not working. The problem becomes you may not have power to the telecom tower to provide the service. So, you know, we started to unpackage all of these kinds of issues to say some of these could just ensure enough fuel exists or enough power backup exists or ensure that your power systems are actually above a flood line, you know, so there's certain basic things you can do.
Some things are more long-term, for example, wind speeds are changing because of climatic conditions and understanding how future wind speeds can affect the towers that you're building as you speak could be another way of saying, okay, let's ensure that these towers don't get damaged because of future cyclonic wind. So, what we've been able to do in this study is, you know, we've described it as first mile, second mile, third mile. The whole system, the telecommunication infrastructure system, broken it down into components to say where is the risk and how can you start to address that through government policy but also through incentives potentially that need to be developed for the private sector to address this because private sector is a very competitive space and how do you incentivise them to pay more attention to making sure that their systems function during an event.
Govindraj Ethiraj: So, I was looking at the numbers. So, you've chosen five states for your study: Assam, Orissa, Tamil Nadu, Gujarat and Uttarakhand and Tamil Nadu and Gujarat have more than or close to between 45,000 to 48,000 towers each state. I'm assuming it is amongst the larger ones and a state like Uttarakhand has 9,756 but it's obviously spread out because it's a hilly state.
What are the other kinds of findings in this? I mean, given the sort of geographic disparity or the diversity rather as well as the climatic diversity in the way these places are located and these towers are installed.
Amit Prothi: So, the reason we chose these five states is because the geographies are very different. We at CDRI are trying to come up with methodologies that are applicable. So, what we wanted to do is to select states where the risk profile is different and then test out what kind of interventions might be needed in those geographies.
So, for example, if you're talking about continuity of service, if you're a coastal state and you're affected by cyclones and your telecommunication system gets interrupted, you might want to explore solutions like bringing off-coast sea vessels that can provide telecommunication service during the duration of an event. And this is something that we've learned from Japan, other countries are doing it where in coastal areas, having readily available ships or vessels that can actually come off the coast to provide service during an event to reduce those disruptions. Now, that is not a solution for the mountainous regions.
So, for mountainous regions, there are other kinds of solutions one can think about. This could be balloons, this could be other ways of drone technology, for example. So, what the focus on these different geographies has allowed us to do is, again, unpackage how risk translates in these different geographies and then ensure how your solutions are going to be different.
Now, there are other factors that come in as well. I mean, the continuity of service is just about the event. But if you're thinking from a longer-term perspective, we've got a lot of cables that are connecting to our coastal regions.
The underground cables are what are connecting the world today and providing all of us the digital access that we're all dependent upon. Now, underground cables are susceptible to volcanic activity, earthquake activity, including the platforms that they come and access on the coastal areas, the flood risk, and cyclonic risk. So, starting to unpackage this entire telecommunication system and putting a risk profile on it and putting it in various geographies then helps us to understand what are the interventions one needs to think about which are varying by geography.
And what we've tried to do here is come up with a methodology that can then be replicated in other parts of the world. I mean, that's really what our intention is. You know, as CDRI, we are a technical assistance, capacity-building-focused organisation.
So, we're seeing this methodology of looking at different geographies. So, the Assam flood is a big problem. Uttarakhand has landslides and earthquakes.
Tamil Nadu, it's about the cable connectivity, the coastal cyclonic activity. And because the infrastructure is different in these locations, so thinking about, for example, your fibre optic cables, that's so crucial. You know, you and I are talking because we are linked through technology, through fibre cables.
They're affected differently in different geographies. And what do you do to address them? In some cases, it's easier to underground it.
In other cases, it's not. So, starting to make better choices by understanding the risk profile in different geographies is how we approach this.
Govindraj Ethiraj: I mean, you are a government organisation. Government-supported international organisation. Your word obviously would translate into some action on the part of, in this case, the private sector who has to have some and therefore demonstrate that it is doing something along these lines.
So, for example, if you say, if it's a coastal city, then, you know, what is my backup plan? Obviously, I'm not going to buy ships, but can I lease them and as in, I want them maybe in flooded areas. It's about how you get things there rather than anything else.
So, what's your sense of how people are responding to this or will respond to this in terms of investing in those, in all these backup teams?
Amit Prothi: To be very fair, this study was done in close coordination with the Department of Telecommunication, DOT. We were working more from the government perspective to say, what is it that they need to do to ensure service continuity? So, when I'm talking about, you know, ships or vessels off the coast, that may be something that the government sector may actually have ready.
So, it is not something that's dependent necessarily on the private sector to provide because that is a short gap measure during the duration of the event or, you know, 24 hours or 48 hours. So, the government can actually do a few things that the private sector may not need to do. Now, where the private sector becomes important is, and this is already happening in India, there are service agreements in some parts where if tomorrow there's an earthquake and your device is connected to Airtel, there are shared arrangements where Airtel and Vodafone and others might allow you to use that network for a certain duration without you having to pay for it.
You know, it's already covered as part of, that is where the private sector has already entered the space and said, okay, during an event or during a disaster situation, we will share our resources because not everybody's towers may or may not be standing, right? So, some of those things are already happening on the private sector side. But there's a lot of work here that is still needed because this is a technology that's changing on a daily basis.
The private sector is building infrastructure quite quickly. I think my hope is that a study like this also helps them see that they can do something from, you know, slightly from a more innovative perspective, particularly in high risk prone areas, if the data and understanding exists. I think this is where the capacity building aspect becomes important.
The linesmen who are at the end of the line fixing your telecommunication system, if they are aware that certain towers are maybe more susceptible to others and certain things need more attention to others, those small differences can actually also, you know, help become more resilient in the long term.
Govindraj Ethiraj: Amit, last question. So, as you worked on telecom towers, not something that one would think of unless it hits you. What are the lessons from here that can be extended to or applied to other parts of disaster prone areas or sectors or themes?
Amit Prothi: I think one which is very clear is that our systems are interconnected. So, I'm talking about resilience of telecommunications, but I actually have to think about resilience of the power sector because telecom depends heavily on power. I may be talking about resilience of water systems, but again, power is critical because your pumps, for example, require power.
Now, when I look at the power system, and we did a study of, you know, about a year and a half ago, where we looked at the coastline of Odisha, if you remember, we probably had a chat on this, where the wind speeds are changing along the coastline. And we looked at the risk to the power sector and what could be done about it. So, as CDR, what we're trying to do is while we're looking at these individual sectors, telecom, even transportation, power, et cetera, trying to also see the linkages between them.
So, this is, you know, you look at an airport, for example, an airport is a system that is reliant on other systems around it. So, if an airport gets flooded and you address the flood in the airport, but the system around the airport is not, your pilots need to come to the airport, your food needs to come to the airport, your passengers need to come to the airport. Even if you're thinking about residents of an airport system and you address that, if you've not addressed the system around it, the functioning of that airport doesn't continue, right?
So, we're trying to actually get more and more deeper into these issues of individual infrastructure sectors, but then the linkages and the systems that these are linked to, so that that system starts to become more resilient. I know it sounds a little bit, because you deal a lot with the automobile sector, for example, right? If you're dealing with an automobile sector, which is prone, I mean, a lot of the industry is located on flatlands around cities, and a lot of those flatlands could be subject to flooding.
So, now you'd say, okay, I've addressed that my manufacturing plant will not be flooded because I've taken all the precautions. I've built it above the flood line. I, you know, my machinery is above a flood prone area.
You've done that and that's fine, but if your worker cannot get to the factory because the roads are flooded, or you're not going to get a power system for a few days because of something around you, then your unit might be functional, but it may not be functional, right? So, those are the kinds of things we're starting to look at through this lens of resilient infrastructure.
Govindraj Ethiraj: And interconnectedness. Amit, pleasure speaking to you. Thank you so much for joining me.
Amit Prothi: Thanks, Govind. Take care.
