A Lucky Friday The 13th Changes Market Sentiment
Friday was a real roller coaster ride with the markets crashing and then recovering sharply through the day
On Episode 459 of The Core Report, financial journalist Govindraj Ethiraj talks to Mandeep Manocha, Co-founder and CEO at Cashify as well as Jehangir Gai, well-known consumer affairs lawyer.
(00:00) The Take
(06:36) A lucky Friday the 13th changes market sentiment
(07:54) India’s rice inventories have hit 5 times the Government’s target
(09:03) India’s refurbished phone market is growing
(18:49) What happens if India increases taxes on the rich?
(21:28) Lessons for India’s insurance industry from a US shooting
NOTE: This transcript contains the host's monologue and includes interview transcripts by a machine. Human eyes have gone through the script but there might still be errors in some of the text, so please refer to the audio in case you need to clarify any part. If you want to get in touch regarding any feedback, you can drop us a message on [email protected].
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Good morning, it's Monday, the 16th of December and this is Govindraj Ethiraj, headquartered and broadcasting and streaming from Mumbai, India’s financial capital.
We are in the final two weeks of 2024 and I do hope you have had a good year as a manager, business person, entrepreneur or investor.
The Take
So far we have heard of Donald Trump’s wide ranging threats, to impose tariffs on imports into the United States and special but varying tariffs on countries like China, Mexico and Canada.
And then 100% tariffs on the BRICS countries like Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa among others for dreaming of - for lack of any other term for the present - they may form a BRICS currency to take on the dollar.
Countries like India have chosen to stay largely quiet and wait and watch, which is perhaps the wisest strategy to follow at this point. Others like Mexico and Canada have already reached out to Trump in person or on telephone and quite likely even won some temporary peace though there is no way of saying that right now.
But the fightback is beginning from businesses and affected industries, even as countries like Canada have revealed their own strategy.
The US agriculture industry has started talks with Donald Trump’s transition team in a bid to advocate for the food business as the president-elect pledges tariffs and mass deportations, says Bloomberg.
It is also becoming clear that tariffs will not be easily to impose particularly resistance starts building from the point where the rubber meets the road so to speak
Groups including the National Grain and Feed Association, which represents agriculture powerhouses such as Archer-Daniels-Midland Co. and Cargill Inc., and the International Fresh Produce Association, were among those involved in the discussions, says Bloomberg adding that the National Council of Agricultural Employers also has a meeting on the books.
Attention is also being drawn to immigration issues as US agriculture has been increasingly reliant on foreign labour and some industry advocates are lobbying for the expansion of a visa program for temporary workers, said Bloomberg.
On the other hand, Canada is examining the use of export taxes on major commodities it exports to the US — including uranium, oil and potash — if incoming President Donald Trump imposes his tariffs, says Bloomberg again.
Export levies would be a last resort for Canada, according to officials familiar with the discussions inside Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s government.
Retaliatory tariffs against US-made goods, and export controls on certain Canadian products, would be more likely to come first, said the people.
But here is the interesting part and an insight into the interconnectedness of economies.
Bloomberg says Canada is by far the largest external supplier of oil to the US; refineries depend on buying cheaper Canadian heavy crude and have few alternatives to it.
The US Midwest would be hit particularly hard by higher costs. Fuel makers in the region rely on Canada for almost half of the crude they turn into gasoline and diesel.
Moreover, Canadian uranium is also the biggest foreign source of fuel for US nuclear power plants, and potash from the country’s western provinces is a huge source of fertilizer for American farms.
And here is the twist in the tale.
The US Department of Defense has actually been investing in Canadian projects to secure sources of cobalt and graphite and reduce reliance on Chinese supply chains.
So now the belief is that the Trump administration will exempt commodities from his threat to place 25% levies on goods from Mexico and Canada, and focus instead on using tariffs against their manufacturing industries.
All this obviously tells us that imposing blanket tariffs as promised a few weeks ago will not be simple and one can expect much resistance along the way, including from quarters least expected.
America’s National Retail Federation last month pointed out that American consumers could lose between $46 and $78 billion of spending power each year if new tariffs on imports to the US are implemented in apparel, toys, furniture, household appliances, footwear and travel goods.
Obviously retailers feel that they cannot pass on all price increases to consumers and will also lose their margins. And the US has already seen very high retail inflation in the last few years.
Now back to India, the Government is considering a proposal to impose safeguard duty on steel imports, Union Steel Minister HD Kumaraswamy said on Thursday.
"The process is going" on the ministry's proposal to impose a 25 per cent duty on steel imports, Kumaraswamy told a news agency last week
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On December 2, the steel ministry in a meeting with the commerce department had proposed for a 25 per cent safeguard duty on certain steel products imported into the country.
A decision might be a half-way solution, a lower figure on some types of steel but it is clear Indian industry would have succeeded in its efforts to sway the Government.
There is no doubt that steel from China and Vietnam is coming in at cost price thanks to over production there.
But it is also a fact that lower prices would benefit users of steel, for example, the construction and infrastructure industry.
Business leaders have often told me privately that Indian industry would always prefer a higher tariff regime and the rising import duties in recent years, reflect that, combined of course with the Government’s own Make in India programme.
But the flip side of the argument is also important. While India can slap high import duties on toys and the like and succeed to a large extent, it cannot do the same in mobile phones or mobile phone components if it wants to provide cheap telephony to hundreds of millions of citizens and also encourage a domestic manufacturing industry, including for exports.
Donald Trump or his advisors quite likely know all this and how some of the pulls and pushes work in the area of trade and global trade.
But the threat of tariffs has got the world in a forced game of musical chairs not knowing whether there are enough chairs or if and when the music will stop.
And top stories and themes
A lucky Friday the 13th changes market sentiment
India’s rice inventories have hit 5 times the Government’s target.
What happens if India increases taxes on the rich ?
India’s refurbished phone market is growing
Lessons for India’s insurance industry from a US shooting
Markets
We do use the roller coaster often but Friday trade was closest to what a real roller coaster ride was, with the markets crashing and then recovering sharply all through.
The markets posted their fourth weekly gain, which is also the longest such streak since the end of July, Reuters reported.
Meanwhile, the 30-share Sensex closed at 82,133.12, up 843.16 points or 1.04 per cent from its previous close.
Check out the range, it traded between 82,192.61 to 80,082.82 on Friday.
The Nifty50 was up 219.60 points at 24,768.30. The index was seen at a day's low of 24,180.80, while the day's high was quoted at 24,792.30.
The broader markets, represented via the Nifty Midcap110 and Nifty Smallcap100 indices ended lower by 0.05 per cent, and 0.30 per cent, respectively.
The overall weekly gains for the Nifty and Sensex were only slight, closer to half a per cent.
The interesting thing is that the indices are now trading only about 5.5% below their all-time high levels hit on Sept. 27, after slipping into correction territory in early November, Reuters says.
Rice Reversal
The country’s rice inventories have jumped to a record high at the start of December, more than five times the government's target, Reuters reports.
Such high inventory levels could boost overseas shipments. India is already the world’s largest exporter of rice.
Rice reserves, including unmilled paddy, in state granaries totalled 44.1 million metric tons on Dec. 1 against a government target of 7.6 million tons, data compiled by the Food Corporation of India quoted by Reuters showed.
Wheat stocks on Dec. 1 stood at 22.3 million tons against a targeted 13.8 million tons.
Last year, India had restricted exports of all grades of rice.
The anticipation of a bumper crop, thanks to above average rains, led the Government to remove export curbs on all rice grades, except for broken rice.
In the middle of overflowing grain bins, Indian farmers have gathered a record rice crop of 120 million tons from this year's summer season, which accounts for nearly 85% of total rice output.
Meanwhile, Indian wheat prices have jumped to a record high due to strong demand, limited supplies, and a delayed release of stocks from its government warehouses to augment supplies.
Used Phones
We usually speak of smartphone sales as a gauge to understand the consumer economy.
However, India, like cars and two wheelers, also has a strong refurbished market, served by companies who have set up the pipelines to collect your used phones, spruce or repair them and then put them back in the market.
Gurgaon-based Cashify which deals in refurbished phones put out a survey recently which said sales of 5G models rose from 13 per cent in H1 2023 to 17 per cent in H1 2024.
Refurbished phone sales increased 109 per cent from January 2024 to H1 2024.
This highlights a growing awareness and acceptance of refurbished mobile phones among consumers.
Of course some things are similar to the primary phone market, like two in every five Android users want to switch to an iPhone.
I belong to the other three incidentally. And by the way, some 3 in 10 iPhone users want to switch back to Android.
One in two customers dreams of owning an iPhone but faces budget constraints.
The most interesting thing is this which I can relate to.
Some 63% of Cashify’s survey respondents have a used phone sitting unused at home. Moreover, 60% of people have at least one phone at home that needs repair, but they choose to buy a new one due to the high repair cost.
And finally, one in four prioritise a good camera, not surprising at all.
I spoke with Mandeep Manocha, co-founder of the company and began by asking him what trends he was seeing.
INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
Mandeep Manocha: See, I think we've seen a very interesting premiumization trend over the last couple of years and I think I can, you know, when I speak to my counterparts in the new smartphone sale industry, you know, Apple has moved from, say, less than 2% market share to now about 5% market share. We are seeing the same trend in refurbished.
And essentially our business is of, you know, catering to the aspirational need of people. You know, people who buy a refurbished or used smartphone, someone who does not have the money to buy a new product, but they are very, very aspirational. And that's what we are seeing as a trend trickling down at all the stores that we run.
And it's very interesting that, you know, a youngster in the age of 18 to 25 or 26, people in college, first time in jobs, they all want either the latest or say, if latest iPhone is 16, they're happy to have a 12 or a 13 because it improves their social capital in front of their friends. So I'm seeing that trend. And, you know, there have been interesting cases of first time job people with salary of Rs 30,000, but with an aspiration to buy a Rs 30,000 phone.
And we are able to, you know, fulfil this need by some aspect of affordability, which comes in with, say, a six month or a nine month financing. But overall, I'm seeing a lot of premiumization as a trend setting in this industry. And it's not just iPhones.
We are seeing that, you know, demand is also getting generated in high-end Samsung Galaxy phones, OnePlus devices, etc.
Govindraj Ethiraj: That's a demand side to which I'll come back. Tell us about the supply side. I mean, if people are able to get their hands on an iPhone 12, that means someone is selling them.
What's the frequency there like? I mean, I'm sure there the behaviour is quite different.
Mandeep Manocha: Yeah. So, you know, I've seen the behaviour change quite a bit. You know, if you remember the times when Nokia was the leader, people used to hang on to their phone for four or five years because the phone was such that you didn't need to change it.
But we saw the refresh cycle come to 12 months to 15 months. Today, the refresh cycle actually gone up to about 18 to 24 months. Because the phones are getting more and more sturdy, the quality is good and they're getting more expensive.
People are hanging on to them to slightly larger timeframe. But another interesting fact there is that, you know, not all the phones come back into the circular economy. Our estimate says that about 80% of the phones actually go in people's drawers and cupboards.
Only 20% people actually end up changing their phone. It could be either when you're buying a new phone, you hand over your old product, or, you know, you're pulling out the old phone from your drawer, selling and getting cash. But 80% of it's still lying in people's drawers.
And I think that's where, you know, companies like ours, we're putting in a lot of efforts and energy into educating the people. That's valuable resource, which is lying there. It's one, it's money.
Second, it's, you know, it's the resource of this planet. I mean, ultimately, if that does not come back into the mainstream economy, either through extend by extending the life and making it available to somebody else, or recycling it, that valuable resource is lying in your house.
Govindraj Ethiraj: And tell us about how you do and manage the throughput and the logistics of this. So let's say a phone that you have to pick up from Bangalore versus Noida versus Calcutta or something.
Mandeep Manocha: See, as a customer, you could be anywhere, you come on to our app, we give you a price, if you like the price, we will come to your doorstep. Now, in about 100 cities, we have our own feet on street. I mean, we have our riders who are trained in evaluating a phone at the doorstep.
So they will run a diagnostic tool on your phone, make sure that whatever you have, you know, told while getting the price is correct. They'll do a physical inspection, we're also deploying, you know, a box, wherein you just put the phone inside the box, and it'll do 360 degree imaging of the phone and tell you where are the scratches, dents, etc. So everything is very, very objective.
Once that happens, and you as a customer, you're okay with the price, you pick it up, we bring all the phones to our central facility in Noida. This is a facility spread over 80,000 square feet where we test every phone, we grade them, and then we refurbish them and then it's sold back to an end consumer, either through our online platform, or about 180 stores that we operate.
Govindraj Ethiraj: Is that seasonal or is that a continuous cycle of sales? How does that?
Mandeep Manocha: Yes, there is some bit of seasonality in this, you know, typically this quarter, just after Diwali is where our procurement cycle peaks, because, you know, people buy a new product and this at this point, this point in time in the year, that's where our procurement cycle increases. But this is the only cyclicity that we see in terms of more and more phones coming in. The other cyclicity we see that whenever a new phone is launched, over a period of, you know, five days before and after we see a peak.
But otherwise, we, you know, we do about 150,000 phones a month is what we procure and sell. You know, that's kind of over the last two years, we've seen about 20-30% growth year on year. But you know, that's something now we are at a stable state.
And I think this business is growing pretty solidly from where we are today.
Govindraj Ethiraj: And you're saying that, including the cost of picking up that phone, putting in that box, running it, training those people, bringing it back, delivering it out again, either through your own platform or through your stores, the 180 stores that you talked about, this is still a profitable business.
Mandeep Manocha: Yes, there's still a profitable business. I can give you a, you know, macro view on this. If I buy a phone from Mr. A and sell to Mr. B directly, there is about 25-30% margin available. This is the gross margin I'm talking about. Now our business has multiple, you know, verticals. We sell to distributors as well.
We sell to, you know, people who retail. So the margin is redistributed amongst each other, but ultimately it's 25-30% which is available. So even after doing all the, you know, hard work of picking it up, preparing it, putting a warranty, it's still a profitable business.
I mean, as a company, we are profitable now.
Govindraj Ethiraj: At this point of time, which is where we are, let's say end of 2024, some parts of the economy are slowing down. There is clearly some demand compression that we can see in the economy as a whole. Does that benefit you in some ways like it does in some other industries and sectors?
Mandeep Manocha: I will answer it slightly differently. I'm seeing that, you know, smartphone sales are flattening out. So if 150 million new smartphones were sold last year, this year the trend remains the same.
Govindraj Ethiraj: 157 or so, yeah, roughly.
Mandeep Manocha: But the interesting fact is that the feature phone user is not moving to smartphone. But inside the smartphone segment, somebody who was using a 10,000 rupee phone is now wanting to buy a 20,000 rupee phone, so on and so forth. So what I touched upon initially is where the aspirational nature of people has kicked in.
So people are wanting to buy, you know, more and more premium phones. So that affects our business in a positive way.
Govindraj Ethiraj: Okay. And why are people not switching from, in your understanding, from feature phone to smartphone?
Mandeep Manocha: I think that's a lot to do from the macroeconomic perspective that a certain section of society is not getting richer. It's only, you know, one section of society which is gaining. But I think the bottom of the pyramid, the GDP per capita is not improving as much.
And that's my understanding. And that's why people are not moving from the feature phone to smartphone. Because there is a price hurdle.
Somebody who's using a 2,000 rupee, 3,000 rupee phone suddenly has to take a leap to about 10 to 12,000 rupees. Because between that 3,000 to 12,000, there is no good option available anymore.
Govindraj Ethiraj: Right. And what would you tell someone who you want to convince to, let's say, buy a used phone? I mean, if you want to make a case that, you know, to people who are listening, saying that, instead of whatever, using up more lithium or plastic or metal?
Mandeep Manocha: No, I think it's a sustainable choice. And more so, it will, you know, help you, your outflow of money would be lower. Refurbished, good quality refurbished phones are available with at least six month or 12 month warranty.
They are properly checked, tested, and they are cheaper by at least 30%. So you can do good for the environment as well as save money. So I think it's a great proposition for you.
Govindraj Ethiraj: Right. Mandeep, thank you so much for joining me.
Mandeep Manocha: Thank you so much.
Should India Increase Taxes For The Rich?
India should do more to tax its super-rich given its high levels of inequality, French economist and author Thomas Piketty said on Friday.
In 2022-23, he said the richest 1% of India's population controlled 22.6% of the national income and held 40.1% of the nation's total wealth.
Pikketty is the author of best seller "Capital in the 21st Century" and said"India should be active in taxing the rich," Piketty in Delhi in a report quoted in Reuters.
He said India could raise annual revenue worth 2.73% of its gross domestic product by imposing a 2% wealth tax on people with assets of more than 100 million rupees ($1.18 million), and a 33% inheritance tax on property worth at least the same amount.
The proportion of national income held by the top 1% richest Indians now surpassed that of their counterparts in the United States and Brazil, Piketty said, citing a 2024 report he co-authored, published by the World Inequality Lab.
The problem, as the Indian government's chief economic adviser, V. Anantha Nageswaran says, is that higher taxes could lead to higher outflows.
The Government has abolished a mostly and already redundant wealth tax in 2015 and has since ignored calls for its return or the introduction of an inheritance tax.
Over the past year, the cumulative wealth of India's 100 billionaires increased more than $300 billion to $1.1 trillion, boosted by a stock market boom, according to the Forbes list of the richest Indians published this month.
Some 4,300 millionaires were expected to move out of India meanwhile in 2024 according to investment migration consultancy Henley and Partners, the third highest after China at 15,200 and the UK at 9,500.
Last year’s figure was higher at 5,100 for India though so the number has slowed at least for now.
There is no doubt that Indians who can are getting overseas domiciles including in Dubai.
Tax is a key reason for the moves though it is not the only one and could also include education for children and quality of life.
Finding the optimum level of tax which keeps businesses in India content versus the desired level of revenue is of course never an easy task.
The focus clearly needs to be fixing inequality by raising the incomes and lot of those on the other side of the inequality spectrum.
That is of course easier said.
Lessons From a Shooting
A recent shooting and killing of an insurance industry CEO in the United States has sent shockwaves around the world, equally for the sympathy the shooter has received, particularly on social media.
The common and underlying grouse is of course that insurance companies have treated their claimants badly over time.
Interestingly, the shooter does not appear to have encountered or suffered at the hands of an insurance company going by reports.
The case does of course highlight the importance of consumer friendliness or the lack of it by insurance companies anywhere, since they all collect premiums, including for hospitalisation and the like, and then act tight fisted or dodge claims when the time comes to pay up.
I used this opportunity to reach out to well known consumer affairs lawyer Jehangir B Gai and asked him how Indian insurance companies were handling their claims and what we could take away in general.
INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
Jehangir Gai: Okay, I can most emphatically say that insurance companies are not treating their customers fairly. In fact, about 80% of the complaints in the consumer courts are against insurance companies. And it seems that the insurance companies have a wait-and-watch policy.
Even after a law point is very well settled, insurance companies refuse deliberately and intentionally to follow the interpretation of law laid down by the courts. They keep repudiating the claims. And what happens is, let's say out of 1000 claims which are wrongly rejected, maybe about 200 will send a notice, about 50 will file a case and fight for the right.
Those 50 who fight for the right, after years of tenacious battling, get their money. Remaining 950 out of 1000, though they are wrongly rejected, the insurance companies get away with that. So that is why, since there is no deterrent action, they keep on indulging in the same so-called mistakes in dealing with claims.
The second aspect is that even when compensation is awarded, it is quite a pathetic amount, maybe 6%, 8%. And who pays that amount? It is not the official who has wrongly repudiated the claim.
It is the insurance company which ultimately pays the compensation out of public funds. So that is why the officials don't change their attitude and continue in the same unfair manner.
Govindraj Ethiraj: Okay, I'm going to come to some specifics. But when you talk about claims sitting in courts, and you said that 80% of complaints in the consumer courts today, I'm assuming you're Mumbai, are against insurance companies. Are there any specific types?
I mean, are they to do with hospitalisation or other forms of general insurance or life?
Jehangir Gai: Basically, medical claim is the worst sector. The other sectors, there are complaints, but not as many. Percentage-wise, almost every health claim, somewhere or the other, the insurance company cuts the amount, reduces the amount, delays payment, avoids payment.
They come up with various excuses to repudiate claims. Ultimately, the consumer is up against a wall because healthcare costs in India are very high. He ends up paying lakhs of rupees for medical services, and the insurance company does not bother to pay heed.
The favourite two clauses of the insurance company, one is diabetes and hypertension, and the other is reasonability clause. Now, what the insurance considers reasonable is something very, very unfair, their interpretation. Because the insurance company says that if X doctor charges so much, of course, it's unsubstantiated.
But if X doctor charges so much, we will not pay anything higher than that amount. Now, the type of service which a medical practitioner gives, it depends on the seniority, the infrastructure in the hospital, the complexity of the surgery, various things are involved. You cannot have one rule that, okay, X will be the amount, it's not a packaged commodity, that you simply fix the amount and say we'll pay so much and nothing higher.
Govindraj Ethiraj: Right. So, you talked about diabetes and hypertension. So, are you saying that the insurance companies treat them as pre-existing conditions that have not been revealed at the time of the claim?
Jehangir Gai: Sometimes, they are not revealed, they are often treated as minor ailments. Sometimes, even after disclosure, the insurance company simply underwrites the policy and then comes up with the objection at the time of settlement of the claim. Many times, the disease does not have anything to do with hypertension, even then the claim is repudiated.
Let's say a person meets with an accident. Hypertension has nothing to do with it. It's simply a hit and run case.
The person is hospitalised. But when the medical history shows that he is a hypertensive person or a diabetic, the insurance company repudiates the claim.
Govindraj Ethiraj: And you've seen specific cases like this? Case where a hit and run accident victim is denied his or her claim because of a pre-existing condition of hypertension.
Jehangir Gai: Yes, there are various other cases also where the insurance company says no correlation. The treating doctor, the operating surgeon specifies, stipulates that there is no correlation and yet the insurance company denies the claim. Not only that, many of the panel doctors of the insurance companies are not qualified.
Now, let's say a person undergoes a cardiac surgery. Who else can opine on that surgery than a cardiologist? An Ayurvedic or an Unani doctor definitely cannot comment.
An MBBS doctor may have some general experience, but this is a specialised field. So, you cannot get any doctor to give an opinion against a professional who is an expert in that particular field.
Govindraj Ethiraj: Let me ask you the question from the other side. Where is it that those of us who apply or go for policies, that's hospitalisation or healthcare policies, make a mistake? One is to say that the insurance company is acting truant and that could be true, but equally are maybe consumers not sufficiently aware or not taking the right precautions when it comes to actually applying for these policies?
Jehangir Gai: So, according to me, the most important factor is that the proposals and the policies are printed in such fine print that it's difficult for an average consumer to read them. In fact, there was one judge in the court who commented, he quipped that I can't read the terms sitting on the bench, the papers produced before me, I can't read them. So, how do you expect a consumer to go through them with a fine comb?
So, it's not possible. Secondly, normally because of paucity of time or lack of knowledge, it is the agent who takes the information from you and fills up the form. So, it goes tick, tick, tick, tick, all the things which the insurance company, which favour the insurance company are nothing and which are detrimental to the insurance, they are not checked.
So, what happens is that the policy is issued, the agent is happy because he gets his commission only when the policy is issued. And finally, when there is a claim, it is the consumer who suffers.
Govindraj Ethiraj: Right. So, two things maybe that consumers need to be more careful and aware of, and you've already talked about diabetes and hypertension, but how does one bring that into to the fore at the application process? And on the other side, two things that companies can do to be more friendly with the people who pay them their premiums.
Jehangir Gai: Let me put it this way. There are several cases which I've come across where the moment the consumer cases file, the insurance company does not even bother to contest the case. Immediately on the first date, without filing their reply, they say, come on, let's settle the matter.
I'm not against settlement, but if you knew that you have no case, why did you force the consumer to knock on the doors of the consumer court? So, you're well aware, you have to be consumer friendly and you have to ensure, and we have to admit it, that most people cannot read minute fine print. So, it has to be properly explained, it has to be witnessed.
Many times there's no witness, something is explained, forms are sometimes left blank. Even when the information is not filled in, the insurance company treats this as suppression of facts. Now, if you are not satisfied, if the information has not been filled in, you can refuse, you can say, please fill in the information.
You accept the incomplete form and then you raise an objection at the time of settlement of the claim. That's not fair, I think.
Govindraj Ethiraj: Anything that you would say which insurance companies need to do so as to ensure that they don't unfairly deprive people of their rightful claims?
Jehangir Gai: I'll simply put it this way. When there is a law laid down, a precedent by a court, a consumer court or any court, don't ignore the precedent. When you know that the law is interpreted in a particular way, why still avoid settling the claim according to the law laid down?
So, that means you are giving rise to multiplicity of litigation because each consumer who has identical facts has to still fight for his rights.
Govindraj Ethiraj: Got it. Jehangir, thank you so much for joining me.
Jehangir Gai: Thank you very much.
