'Need People With The Innovation': Engineers India Ltd’s Vartika Shukla On The Skills They Look For In Engineers Today

NOTE: This transcript contains the host's monologue and includes interview transcripts by a machine. Human eyes have gone through the script but there might still be errors in some of the text, so please refer to the audio in case you need to clarify any part. If you want to get in touch regarding any feedback, you can drop us a message on [email protected].

Ms. Shukla, thank you so much for joining me. I'm going to talk about Engineers India Limited in a moment, but this is also a company that you joined 36 years ago, out of college, that's IIT Kanpur, as a chemical engineer. Tell us about the first project or the very first project that you worked on and what was your role in it?

Thank you first, Govind, for having me here. And really 36 years has been long and I still have very distinct memory of the first project that I took up or was given in Engineers India. Right out of college, it was a different experience, going straight to an industrial kind of investment of the size that it was back then.

And the first project I looked at was recovering of the liquids, basically, which go into petrochemicals and I worked for ONGC's Uran plant, which was one of its kind in terms of treating the gas, in terms of recovering the liquids for the then IPCL Nagothane project. In fact, we did the first-of-its-kind liquid, cryogenic liquid pipeline in the country. Now, of course, we have several others, but that was the breakthrough kind of work that Engineers India was always doing. And I was privileged to be part of that first project.

Right. And I'm sure your career, at least in the early days, followed the growth of India's oil and gas sector. And I'll come to that in a moment. But tell me about Engineers India Limited. So this is a company which to me sounds like the public sector equivalent of L&T, but maybe in some of these areas predates L&T. So how was Engineers India Limited created? What was its objective or what was it supposed to do?

We are an equivalent in some ways, but we are unique as well. We are differentiated in several ways. We are largely an engineering company. We were founded in 1965. We are celebrating 60 years of building the nation, working internationally. Our role primarily was to make sure that we were completely self-reliant in carrying out engineering work.

And in that, I think we have surpassed the expectations. There are many firsts that the engineers did in those times. Many firsts in terms of the scale of projects that we implemented.

And over these six decades, not only in the nation, but internationally, we have left a mark of unique ability to assimilate new technologies. Many of them were first then, are first now. And also implement the size and scale of the project in terms of project management, procurement, the interlinkages of technology, looking at the skills which are required to make sure that the purpose of the investment is met at the best quality.

So that has been the journey of the company. And I have been associated with the journey as we have moved on from very simple refining capacities to very complex refining capacities now, very huge conversions of crude to motor fuels primarily. Also looking at very high pressure units which are safety orientated.

So such is the kind of transition that has happened. And more and more as we see the industry, it is becoming more and more complex in terms of integration with petrochemicals. One of the most complex petrochemical units that we are implementing for one of our clients has the highest petrochemical intensity.

So I've been a part of many such projects and have learned like other EIL team members as we have gone along, grown both in terms of responsibility as well as in knowledge in the organisation.

And I'm going to come to that oil and gas arc, if I can call it that. But at the time that you joined EIL, most of your classmates would have been headed out of the country. So what made you stay back and do this?

Yes, in fact, as I recollect, one of my professors who was also my guide for my BTech project was very annoyed at me as to why did I not choose that path. At the same time, when EIL came on campus for recruitment, he made it a point that I appear for the interview because he thought that was a very good fit if I chose not to study outside. But it was more from right from there, giving back, working for the nation.

That was something which I was very...

You were clear about that in college?

Absolutely, very, very clear about that. And I'm happy that I have worked in a company which has also dedicated its 60 years to growing the infrastructure of the country, to bringing energy to the country, bringing niche products to the country.

So let's talk about the oil and gas arc. So 1970s, oil and gas was discovered out of Mumbai or Bombay high wind. And there was drilling rigs, there were process platforms that oil and gas was taken onshore to the project where you worked later on. And I would guess that a lot of the work that EIL has done has followed this arc of oil and more oil being produced, oil being refined. And of course, the country's own energy needs kept growing as they continue to. So tell us about what happened after that Uran project.

Yeah. So, you know, after the Uran project, we also did Hazira for ONGC, where again, there was gas treatment, also more recovery of these valuable products, essentially for end use of petrochemicals. The pipelines associated the HPJ pipeline, which was the first of its kind, mega project, which we did in collaboration with DOTSIL. And now today we are completely self-reliant in executing such projects.

So that pipeline, and though I'm sure many people would have forgotten. So that's Hazira, Bijapur, Jagdishpur pipeline. So the idea was to take gas that was found again in Mumbai, or just off Mumbai and take it right up to the north of India. So you have industry which comes along the way. And so EIL built that pipeline.

We have had the consultancy and implementation of that pipeline. And as that pipeline, you know, brought gas to the industry, brought energy to the interior of the country, the spurring of industries around it was basically an outcome of that.

And if you see even the pipeline network today that we have for crude, the import facilities that we have for crude has built the refineries inland. And we have been part of it, whether we look at Mathura refinery of Indian oil or Panipat refinery of Indian oil. Gujarat, of course, was the first indigenous crude, inland indigenous crude, North Gujarat, South Gujarat crude.

So we were instrumental in setting that up. And even if you look down south, the Chennai petrochemical, in fact, our first refinery project was Madras refinery project. That was the first time that we undertook a project in refining.

And there were a lot of technologies which we have also developed along with research institutions like the wax technology, loop technology, which is again elements of the crude oil, which actually go into various, you know, in the wheels of the economy in various ways, not just the transportation fuels.

I know you have a certain advantage because you are a government-owned company and you may be working with other government-owned companies, but you still have to convince them. Let's say you talked about lubes or lubricants. So how do you convince someone that you are the best person to do something that you've not done before? Only because you've done other things, which are somewhat analogous to this particular project or projects like this.

So, number one, we have to still fight our battle. It's not that we are a government-owned company. We get to kind of into an advantageous position.

We get our advantage because we are differentiated from the others. And why I say that is because anytime that a new technology comes, it takes a lot. It takes an end to end understanding and end to end building of the supply chain.

Let me give you an example. When we look at the acrylate plant of BPCL, which we executed in Kochi. This is the first time that such a big capacity plant has come out, which is a propylene derivative plant. And it brings in a lot of self-reliance for the country. Now, this was a challenge for us, as was for the client, both in terms of building up of the vendor base, to get an equipment from overseas, to do some fabrication on site, which has not been done before. And it is the skills of all the elements of engineering, which we have under our own umbrella, that we made it happen.

Another shining example is the second generation ethanol, which we are completing in Numalikar for our client, ABRPL. They're in some of the materials which are used, like there's a lot of use of titanium. And there aren't any vendors in the country. So we, as a company, we are also committed to make in India, to bring up MSC vendors. And we have developed these vendors to supply, not just that, even develop specifications.

Another very interesting example is the Mongolia refinery we are executing, wherein we are looking at minus 40 degrees temperatures in the permafrost, and building specifications for that. That needs strength. That needs a core understanding of the problem.

So many of our engineers are part of ASMI, international groups who develop these standards. And that is a strength that EIL carries on its shoulders. So when we look at anything new, we are very confident that we are going to execute it. And that's also a selling point.

And you're saying Engineers India Limited engineers are in Mongolia in those temperatures right now?

Yes. Yes, they are.

So it must be a tough life for them.

Oh, yes, it is. Of course, they are fully equipped. And in these times, we do a lot of interior work, like in the building, inside the building. Minimal work is done outside because we finish most of our work before the winter sets in, and then resume in March. But there is a lot of other work that they undertake. Yes, our team is there, definitely.

If I were to now go back again, maybe three decades, it starts, let's say, to some extent with oil and gas, but I'm sure it progresses rapidly. Tell us about what comes or in the EIL story as you acquire more skills and more, let's say, core competencies, as you've gone now into, let's say, ports and terminals. It's very different from what you were doing in some ways, 30 or 35 years ago. Tell us about what else has EIL gathered along the way in terms of these skills? And if you were to bring it to the present, how would you, once again, define the landscape that you operate in?

Over the first three decades, EIL has always been very resilient in moving in uncharted territories. And that strength has given us to move into infrastructure segment, wherein we started our journey with some work around buildings and building, you know, kind of water, wastewater and areas like sectors like that.

Today, when I see the businesses that we are or the projects that we are executing, we are looking at data centres. We are doing one of the finest data centre in the country. And previously, we have executed data centres for SBI, UADI, Rajasthan State Government. So this is a certain niche work that has developed out of the core competency of engineering.

Similarly, today, our journey has resumed activity in non-ferrous metallurgy, in ferrous metallurgy, which, again, brings to our clients the value of end-to-end solution. So when we look at our company, it's from concept to commissioning. So we offer under one roof the complete services.

Now, over the years, what has happened is we have done a lot of value addition in terms of conversion of tacit knowledge into our knowledge pool. We have migrated to a lot of systems which are digital. A lot of efficiency has come into the place. A lot of smart engineering tools have been implemented to make sure that it's more accurate. It is more timely and, you know, it brings value to our customers.

And that journey continues even today because engineering is evolving at a very fast pace now with the advent of a lot of, you know, mathematical tools wherein we need to keep pace with that. And that's the biggest challenge right now.

How did you pitch or think of pitching for a data centre project? I mean, was it something that came automatically in terms of thought or is it something that was out of your comfort zone, so to speak?

Anything we do, many times we do new. I tell my teams it will always be out of comfort zone. But if we are not going to live up to those challenges, we might as well just do the mundane things and stay there.

But that doesn't give excitement to the team. That doesn't give excitement to the company. So I'm a firm believer that even if we have not treaded that path before, it is if not us, then who?

That's how we should look at it. So when we look at data centres, there is a lot of complexity in it. It's an amalgamation of the building work.

You have to keep things cool. I mean, that's the most important thing.

As also you have to make, let's say, blast-proof designs, so which we do in control rooms in refined repair to chemicals. You need to bring the chilling right. You need to get the heat load right, which we also do in our control rooms. And we have a whole team who does HVAC and, you know, basically the fundamental designs. Moreover, I think the bigger thing which what we bring as a team, as a company on the table is offering solutions when things are not going as per plan. For example, one of the recent project that we were executing, typically you do a foundation first and then you do the roof.

But there in the soil conditions was such we did the roof first and then we went down. So these are all innovative solutions that we get. For example, in Rajasthan refinery that we are executing, if you see the water below the sub water table.

Barmer, is it?

Barmer. It is three times the salt that the sea has. So designing that unique foundation, it is only the strength of our multifunctional talent that we have, which, you know, kind of brings it on the table.

And that's what how we got into data centre. And moreover, there is a lot of strategy also in the data centre. When you look at SOC, NOC and building up these facilities, you need to have the instrumentation team, the IT team.

And there are many other functionalities which are involved in implementing that, as well as interfaces between the providers of the racks, as well as redoing maybe sometimes the clean rooms and the rooms where it's fitted. So this kind of edge that we have in comparison to a lot of other, you know, similar…

So you're saying a team of engineers who were working hypothetically in a refined building a refinery in Mongolia, for example, could next day be doing the same, I mean, building a data centre outside Mumbai city.

Not exactly the same, but we have the way we structure our divisions. There are discipline orientated, there are subject matter experts in each of the elements. And then there is cross functionality and we train the youngsters that we bring in into the team.

As much as, you know, a horizontal exposure that they can have, they cannot change gears immediately. We need to have maybe a senior level who actually is having that experience, but we make sure we groom the others along with it so that the chain of knowledge, you know, continues in the company. Plus, we do have specialised teams for this.

Like there are certain departments who only take up special work. They are not the run of the mill routine work. So we have those…

What's another example of a non-routine project?

So let me give you an example with the Dangote refinery, which we implemented for Nigeria. It is a $20 billion project, which has got commissioned last year. We did a lot of modularisation there.

We talk of a lot of modularisation to cut short the project time in the country. That whole project is built on dredged land. It is reclaimed land. And a lot of designs of modular supplies went from India all the way there.

Now that's something which our teams, for them, it was the first time. So the complete design, looking at the weights, the way, you know, what kind of barges will take them, all those calculations, how they will be taken off from the Roro jetty.

So this whole element is again a very unique achievement of our team. So there are many firsts which define us and will continue to define us as a different company.

I'm going to come to some of the present projects. But before that, you know, an engineer who passes out today, would she or he be the same, let's say, or would the demands on her or him be the same as they were at your time? And let me elaborate a little bit. I'm assuming the concept of engineering itself is changing. Let's say if you were to take automobiles, today, many people say cars are just computers on wheels. So the concept of someone who's an automobile engineer who studied internal combustion may not really matter so much, or at least the EV guys would like to say. Similarly, in your world, how have things changed? I mean, what competencies does an engineer come with today? And what do those competencies even matter? And do they actually, you know, you just come here because you've proved that you're an engineer. You've come out from, let's say, IIT. But now you're going to learn something completely different because that's what the world is asking for.

So times have really changed. When I see some of the job closure reports that we did and our predecessors did, it is simply amazing. I mean, it is the calculations are in their hand, impeccably written. And that's the proof of the ability to think through each step to actually achieve, you know, the engineering output.

Times have changed now. You have a lot of softwares. You have a lot of peripherals around you to actually deliver. But then I also believe that a good engineer is required to interpret them. It is not that you just feed anything and you get and you kind of design it.

So there is a lot of analysis which goes in, which comes by training, by experience. So any new engineer which joined then would perhaps had and would even I have done a lot of calculations by my own hand. The plus is that when someone brings it to me, I can actually figure it out faster as to what can be improved.

So as also I would say the projects that we did at that time were less complex and there was less pressure to finish in 24 months, 30 months, 36 months. So there was a lot of thought which was put in the initial stages of the project.

Today we are working against time. Every project that we undertake has a lot of challenge to finish in less time because of a lot of automation and a lot of software supported engineering which has come. So the engineer today needs to get on board immediately. And that's what we do to our youngsters.

We put them on the job and we make sure that they learn whichever discipline they are. But one very important thing is we post them at our sites initially itself. So the understanding of the plant is extremely important for the industry that we are in.

What kind of complexities it has. So when they go back and do their drawings, they know that if they make a change, what kind of impact it will have on site in terms of implementation, construction. That kind of exposure helps making them a more grounded person.

And of course, we have our seniors who are experienced in several projects who kind of look at the work that they do, eventually do, whether there are any mistakes. Mostly we are a very standard orientated company, very procedure orientated company. We have very strong systems.

So if anything goes wrong at one place, there will be at least five other checkpoints, which can be kind of make sure that things go back in the right direction. But the time scale of, you know, kind of finishing everything is much faster now. So that brings us a challenge, of course, that we need to get it right the first time.

So let me put the question or let me supplement that question. So what are the additional skills that you're looking for today, which may not have been required or asked of, let's say, two or three decades ago?

So what we need today is people with the innovation, people, you know, youngsters who are willing to move out of their conventional role, take up challenges, particularly like we have opened a digital department, you know, about two and a half years ago. And we need youngsters to come out and, you know, help in building that kind of strength and backbone for the company. So we do look at now more of kind of redoing it at a faster pace with more efficiency, with the same technical output.

We also look at, you know, the youngsters who can groom themselves, because today businesses are not just engineering. Businesses are all about relationship. Repeat clients are very important if we deliver right.

We are also looking at the skills of, you know, kind of working around issues, resolving them at a faster pace rather than leaving. So we need even the youngsters to have the ability to kind of sift through debate and find solutions, solution-orientated teamwork, which is far more required now because you have a lot of other distractions or a lot of other engagements also. We appreciate that and we value that as well.

So it's a different role today, but I'm happy to say that whenever we have challenged our young teams, they have outshone and they have surprised us beyond imagination.

You talked about speed and that's an interesting point because and you've emphasised that quite a few times. So why is it that, let's say, people are demanding outcomes faster than maybe a few years ago?

If I was an owner and I put in investment in a project, I would like it to come up at the fastest time because I, why did I put it up? I put it up because I wanted revenue out of it. I wanted a market share out of the product that I'm going to make.

I need to establish myself fast. So from the owner's perspective, the faster it gets done, it's the best. And as fast as we can deliver, it's best for us also. So it needs to be done at the pace that is, you know, world-class or basically matches the world-class projects that are, you know, get executed.

So you're going faster because you're meeting a global benchmark or you're meeting client requirements? I mean, or are both the same?

Both. Because globally, if we work, like we have an office in Abu Dhabi and we have about 150 people who are posted there working for AdNoc. We find that schedule, quality and schedule are extremely important.

And that is also something which we need to give to our customers, whether they are domestic customers or international customers, which is important for them that we adhere to the timelines. And that's why they take us. So it's extremely, extremely sensitive to us being as their consultants or taking up their contracts.

So the understanding, this kind of sensitivity is essential in each and every employee of a company that it is a time-bound project. We need to deliver on time. And that's what we emphasise all the way that, look, you have, we have the resources, that's our job as management to give all the resources that are required. But at the end of the day, we need to meet the project schedule.

So tell me about your current, let's say, portfolio of projects. What is AI working on? In what areas? What is nearing completion? What are the big projects that you have right now, which you're monitoring, for example, more closely?

So, in fact, this year we have done very well in terms of order inflow. Last year we had an order inflow, that means FY23-24, we had an order inflow of about 3400 crores. This year we have surpassed 7000 crores and we haven't ended the year now.

So we have got a great inflow. And primarily these projects are in petrochemicals. And we hope that we will build on this order inflow by when we end this financial year.

They are also huge inflow in terms of infrastructure segment. While these are our largest volume of order inflows and the projects that we are trying to complete and undertake in initial phases, we have also entered in a small way in non-ferrous metallurgy, re-entered back, I would say, also entered in the steel sector, the biofuel area, the green hydrogen project that we have undertaken, as well as internationally we have tried to expand our volume of business in the MENA region.

We are also present in Guyana for the power plant PMC. Looking at the nation again, back again, we see that we are very well placed in taking up complex mega projects, which puts our experience on the table in the sense of the complexity and scale that we talk of, wherein we are having the experience of completed several projects for both the private sector and the public sector, as also the complete supply chain that we have. So, we have a huge supplier list, which we support the Indian industry to grow, to kind of bring the capability, which also are the backbone of the supplies that we get for these projects. So, this is how we are positioning and positioned ourselves.

When you say petrochemical projects, I mean, that's your current, you said that's most in the value side, it's a large part. So, that also suggests that petrochemicals as an industry is still growing. I mean, in terms of obviously, therefore, there is downstream demand for petrochemical products, and maybe that includes man-made fibres, but the whole sector is growing. So, does that say something about the economy itself, or is it this is more a global phenomenon?

I think it is more specific to the nation, because we have a per capita consumption of petrochemicals, which is about 13 kilograms or so, and you see the average, it is almost five times. So, there is huge scope. Plus, if you see even the infrastructure segment, which the nation is building, whether you talk of water pipelines, you talk of fibres, you talk of the spread across every nook and corner of the nation, all needs petrochemicals, even the automotive sector that you talked of needs some of the petrochemicals, whether you have ice or EV, it's still required.

And there are so many segmental growth, when you talk of paints, when you have infrastructure, you need paints, you need adhesives, you need solvents, you need all of these and these are all petrochemical products. So, I see as we go forward, most of the complexes which will be invested in will be potentially larger petrochemical base and less of the fuel base. This is how I see going forward in terms of investment, particularly in the hydrocarbon sector.

So, what does that mean? That means that we are going to get the fuel from somewhere else and it will not be processed in the same location? Can you explain that?

So, essentially, when you look at petrochemicals, you can have a variety of feedstocks. You can have crude based feedstock, which is naphtha, which is, for example, in Panipat, we are having naphtha. In Haldia also, we have naphtha, which is HPL.

Also, you could have ethane based feedstock, which Reliance now operates and you could also have condensates and there are some other elements. Now, when we look at refineries, there are several other streams which can also go to the petrochemical, which is called the refinery integrated heavily with petrochemicals, like the Panipat expansion we are doing or we will be undertaking some more new projects or the BINA expansion for petrochemicals that we are undertaking for BPCL. So, these feedstocks are integral, but there is a lot of opportunity for putting up petrochemicals on feedstocks, which are directly imported, like ethane or ethane propane mixture or propane butane mixture, which is nothing but LPG or even light condensate or light crude based, depending on how we do the supply agreement for all these feedstocks, which has more conversion than typically a crude based or naphtha based petrochemical. So, given that there is room for both the integrated petrochemicals to come up, as well as light feed ethane based petrochemicals, which will be a direct feed to the cracker and the downstream.

And how are you seeing the next one or two years? I mean, not too far into this thing. So, you still, I am assuming because these are long gestation projects, you see petrochemicals being a core kind of part of your offering. The newer areas, I am assuming includes areas like data centres, which you have talked about. Is there anything in between that is new and or upcoming that you are seeing?

So, we also see space for us, particularly in the semiconductor, investments which are going to be there, wherein again, similar infrastructure like the clean rooms, give us an opportunity to offer the high end services for this segment. We are hoping to break through in that as well. We are also trying our best to build back our capability in the mining and the mineral sector, wherein again, a huge opportunity will come, which already we see the mines being bid out and value addition happening there as well.

These are the two segments besides the ones that we want to continue to grow in. I also see opportunity in a lot of academic institutions which are going to come up in terms of the scale and the kind of quality that these institutions will look at. We have just done one of the work for one of the IITs to build up their campuses. And I am hoping that, in fact, we are doing…

This is not your alumni?

No, not my alumni matter. And we are just now doing the phase two for IIM Nagpur. So, these are again the kind of unique capabilities that we have. And I do see that we can stand apart and we can do their engineering and project management very well.

So, I am going to ask you about the India Energy Week, since that is what has brought us here. But before I come to that, what is your most favourite project that you worked on, for any reason? It could be because of exposure, for learning, for excitement, for technology, complexity.

So, I remember very distinctly, this was one of the first residue fluid petrochemical FCC, which we call the fluid catalytic cracking, which cracks the feedstock to petrochemicals. And this is the first time that we did that. And I was part of the expansion for Mangalore refineries.

In fact, we did two technologies there. That is the only one which is running in the country, which is coca gas oil hydrotreater and this petrochemical FCC.

There were two petrochemical FCCs going on at the same time and I was part of the team to do the and believe me, it was extremely difficult to select the technology and carry out an evaluation and assessment and equally tough to actually implement it. Because there are very many nuances of the technology which were not done before.

And the excitement was to give a solution so that I worked in the process division, which was basically a core technical division to give the fastest solution to the project manager. And that used to be a race between my team, which I headed and the project executive director.

And the way we tailored our specification to get in multiple bids for a particular equipment, to get competitive codes, to solve issues which were happening at site, solve things for the first time. Those were really exciting days in a very tough environment. If you have seen Mangalore refinery, it is very tough.

It is built on several levels and it's not an easy site to execute. And that was something which is impressionable in terms of the solutions that we provided to make it happen.

Right. Wonderful to hear that. So, the India Energy Week brings everyone in the energy space in India. So, what are you looking out for when you go into an event like this?

So, first of all, it's great to be part of, I mean, the third edition is going to be the largest conglomerate of minds, both from the nation and international experts. What as a company, what we are looking for is one, to showcase what we can do. Although we are known, but it's never enough to explain the value that we can bring on the table.

We are also looking at showing our solutions towards sustainability. And to give an example, we are implementing the geothermal airport for Leh for airport authority, which is going to use geothermal for floor cooling, which is the first time. So, we'll be showcasing some of our unique capabilities.

Again, this is done for the first time. We are also showcasing some of the associations we have in the space of solar energy, the solar CSP, which will be now the next gen in terms of solar power and solar use of thermal, solar thermal, I would say. So, we have a tie up with an Australian company, sunrise CSP, which is also, again, some of our unique offering.

We are also implementing the first bioATF for sustainable aviation fuel plant for one of our clients. We'll be showcasing that as well. So, what we want to project essentially is that we are an oil and gas company, but we are there in the space of sustainable solutions.

That's how our tagline goes. That's how our vision goes, that we will give an integrated energy solutions to our customers. That's one of the major pitches that we want to make in India Energy Week. Besides the fact that if you want robustness in technical solutions, you want robustness in executing mega complex projects, we have it all under one umbrella. That's our pitch. We also have a Make in India pavilion there, which we anchor for the last two years as building up the industry of the country.

This year, we have about 51 suppliers who are enlisted with us. They will be showcasing many firsts, which have come up in terms of manufacturing in the country. This together brings us in a very integrated manner as a total solution company to our customers.

Ms. Shukla, it was a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you so much.

Thank you very much, Govind. Thank you so much.